# Crazy Call?

DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
edited August 2018
2 other players. I'm in position

Flop \$12
BB check
MP \$10
Hero call \$10
BB call \$10
Turn \$42

BB check
MP raise 30
Hero call 30
BB raise 90
MP folds
Hero shove for \$155 on top then...
Turns cards up like an idiot.

Pot \$192
Bet \$155
Villain has \$120

(My numbers are off. I shoved for \$155 and that was putting her all in. I guessing I called 60 then put 155 over that.)

Villain having discussion with players next to her about quads or high hand or something!?

Tanks then...
Calls with
River

Seems a fold to me? Maybe not easy but mandatory.

• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
Homework assignment for you, next time you play remember the positions of the players. As I read it, seems impossible to go 3 ways to the flop. When you say BB you mean straddle?

Utg
Utg+1
Mp1
Mp2
Hj
Co
Btn
Sb
Bb

These are standard positions to remember. Not knowing the positions make the HH confusing to me....

Let me see if I can work this out....
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
Easy, easy fold.

Also not even sure how V's hand would even qualify for a high hand unless 3s full of jacks (in the unlikely event that V spikes a jack) would somehow hold up (unlikely again) and win an hourly high-hand promo. Even so, still an easy fold unless the high hand would pay out around a grand.
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm going to assume BB = straddle since straddle can't fold preflop, other wise would be 4 ways instead of 3 ways.

2nd im going to assume stack size of \$224 for the straddle
+\$4 straddle + \$10 flop + \$90 turn + \$120 call

Utg +1 folds
Mp1 (\$200) calls \$4
Mp2 folds
CO Hero (\$259) calls \$4
Btn folds
Sb \$1 fold
BB \$2 folds

Flop (\$15)
Utg (\$220) checks
Mp1 (\$196) bets \$10
Co hero (\$255) calls
Utg calls

Turn (\$45)
Utg (\$210) checks
Mp1 (\$186) bets \$30
Co hero (\$245) calls \$30
Utg (\$210) raises to \$90
Mp folds
Hero (\$215+\$30) all in
Utg (\$120+\$90) calls all in \$210 total.

Total pot ~ \$495
Turns cards up like an idiot.

Question: Did she see your hand?

Her pot odds
Pot (\$45) + bet (\$30) + raise (\$90) + shove (\$210) total pot is \$375 with \$120 for her to call. She needs 24% getting little over 3:1

What outs does she have?
Ace (3)
7 (3)
J (3)

So she is making -EV call if she saw your hand. If she didn't see your hand, you could have TP+FD here or a hand like A7.

Question#2 you say it's a crazy call. Is that because she saw your hand? Is it a crazy raise by you? What happens if she has 73, 77, or A3?

Now that we think we know how the hand played out.

Question #3
Why are you over limping with K3s? What is your plan to make money?

Question #4
With the straddle on your playing roughly 50bb poker with the effective stacks. Do you think K3s is profitable?
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
edited August 2018
Sorry yes. Was written hastily.
Hero call
SB fold.
BB call
UTG check.

Yes she saw the hand. I tabled it. I left it tabled.
The limp is a different story. Just looking for a flush. This session I decided to add suited Kings to my limping range. But also people here had strong limping ranges. Never seen nothing like it.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Ace (3)
7 (3)
J (3)

The A and the 7 are 1.5:1 though.
Only the J is 3:1.
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
Sorry yes. Was written hastily.
Hero call
SB fold.
BB call
UTG check.

Yes she saw the hand. I tabled it. I left it tabled.
The limp is a different story. Just looking for a flush. This session I decided to add suited Kings to my limping range. But also people here had strong limping ranges. Never seen nothing like it.

So you open limped in the CO? What happened to MP? Your positions keep changing.

What's the first rule of fight club?
~We don't talk about fight club!

What's the first rule about open limping?
~We don't open limp!
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
UTG must be the MP I meant. So basically that EP. I wrote all the notes after the hand so I'm betting that is what happened.

Yes I open limped in CO. I thought there was a chance BUT would fold. This is normally a fold for me but the table was letting these through. The implied odds of hitting anything solid we're pretty high here. Raising K3 would kill my SPR for this rediculous hand.
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
UTG must be the MP I meant. So basically that EP. I wrote all the notes after the hand so I'm betting that is what happened.

Yes I open limped in CO. I thought there was a chance BUT would fold. This is normally a fold for me but the table was letting these through. The implied odds of hitting anything solid we're pretty high here. Raising K3 would kill my SPR for this rediculous hand.

1) please don't use implied odds to justify poor play.

2) yes, raising lowers the SPR but also gives you a chance to win before the flop. It also gives you iniative. It also gives you range advantage. It also gives you a chance to win more money as most players will call preflop and fold on the flop. I would rather have a chance to win Without having to make a hand.

3) if you had AA would you limp? If the answer is no, your saying you limp with all your weak hands and if I raise you will fold because SPR will be too low for you. Alright!!! Extra dead money for me.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭✭
edited August 2018
dnoyeB wrote: »
The implied odds of hitting anything solid we're pretty high here
This is a serious understanding mistake and I invite you to dig into the concepts of implied odds and hitting % - which are 2 totally different concepts.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
I'm not trying to justify my play. I am explaining why I did that. I don't care about splitting my range because if this hand faces any heat I'm folding it. As I said, these were getting through and the table didn't know how to fold so any good hand will clean up. And there is no one at the table attacking limpers or exploiting anything.

Essentially I am playing two games. Poker and not-poker.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Red wrote: »
dnoyeB wrote: »
The implied odds of hitting anything solid we're pretty high here
This is a serious understanding mistake and I invite you to dig into the concepts of implied odds and hitting % - which are 2 totally different concepts.

Maybe I said it wrong? Flopping 2 pair might be a long shot but when you do you are likely to stack players at this table.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
Red wrote: »
dnoyeB wrote: »
The implied odds of hitting anything solid we're pretty high here
This is a serious understanding mistake and I invite you to dig into the concepts of implied odds and hitting % - which are 2 totally different concepts.

Maybe I said it wrong? Flopping 2 pair might be a long shot but when you do you are likely to stack players at this table.
K3s and 72o have the same chance of flopping 2pairs (*). If you reason so, why not playing any two cards and see if you hit the flop to make them pay?

(Actually if we take the card removal effect, I think 72o flops 2P sliiiightly more often - but that's a almost not significant effect and interests only nerds like @jeffnc or me lol. If you're interested: https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/6588/the-card-removal-effect-and-bunching-effect/p1 )
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
there is no one at the table attacking limpers or exploiting anything

Why are you not attacking limpers and exploiting them? Why play their game?
• Red Chipper Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
Red wrote: »
Actually if we take the card removal effect, I think 72o flops 2P sliiiightly more often - but that's a almost not significant effect

Right, not significant in terms of affecting your play.

And you are right, if flopping 2 pair stacks someone, then any 2 cards are as good as any other (and we already know they're not).

• Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
Red wrote: »
(Actually if we take the card removal effect, I think 72o flops 2P sliiiightly more often - but that's a almost not significant effect and interests only nerds like @jeffnc or me lol. If you're interested: https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/6588/the-card-removal-effect-and-bunching-effect/p1 )

• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Red wrote: »
K3s and 72o have the same chance of flopping 2pairs (*). If you reason so, why not playing any two cards and see if you hit the flop to make them pay?
Because I am only partially crazy. And I'm not looking for the 2 pair so much as the flush. K is as low as I am willing to go because of the RIO. I play these mostly in position when limped too and I don't expect a raise behind. I'm not sticky with the K but mostly don't have to be in position.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭✭
Someone has to study how hands hit the flop (Flopzilla will be your best investment), and stop playing bingo poker. Show us - them ! - some teeth!
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Austin wrote: »
there is no one at the table attacking limpers or exploiting anything

Why are you not attacking limpers and exploiting them? Why play their game?
I am going to raise my proper hands properly. Depending on the response I will adjust. If people never fold then I wont keep raising bigger and bigger to attack them. I don't have the bankroll for it.

I am not playing their game. I won't be limp calling unless of course I am the last caller and have a strong potential draw like K3s. But I will stop altogether if this happens too many times. This is supposed to be \$2 not a \$5. Even if I'm getting the same pot odds the SPR is getting worse.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Red wrote: »
Someone has to study how hands hit the flop (Flopzilla will be your best investment), and stop playing bingo poker. Show us - them ! - some teeth!
I'm not totally disagreeing with you. I will have to start another thread to express the idea because this is a bit of a big thing actually. explaining why I will do this. I could be wrong, but its not going to be a quick thing and I am believing I have the math with me. So well be able to settle it.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭✭
Looking forward to it