Check-raise for image?

moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
edited August 2018 in Live Poker Hands
I was going to type this hand up anyway even before seeing @Austin's thread here. IMO, it compliments it well.

1/3. Third hand of the night. I'm at $300.

I'm in BB.

UTG: Never seen him before. Has around $700. No early clues to his play based on any initial indicators.

HJ: A reg. Often builds a big stack and over-folds to protect it when he does.


The hand
UTG raises to $15.
Four callers, including HJ.
Hero in BB has :5h :4h. I call.
Honestly, this is probably a fold, and an easy one. I'll admit: sometimes I just can't help myself. :)


The flop ($90): :Js :7c :6s
UTG bets $50.
Folds to HJ.
HJ calls $50.
Folds to Hero.

I can make arguments for calling; I can make arguments for folding; I can make arguments for raising; and I can make arguments for shoving.

The typical argument for shoving is that I'm about 90% that HJ would fold to a shove. Admittedly, UTG is unknown: shoving would be guessing here as to his response. But, given the money in the pot, it will often win me a good-sized pot with reasonable equity when called.

In these situations, early in a session, I often consider as a factor establishing an aggressive/bluffy table image as a significant side-effect to shoving. Obviously, if everyone folds, then great! If I get any calls, then, regardless of whether I win or lose the hand, I have to turn over my cards and get an aggressive/bluffy image established.

How much should establishing that image weigh in to my decision-making?
«1

Comments

  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    I don't see how this is a fold preflop. It cost you $12 to win $90 immediate and possibly stacks when you smash. This is an easy call and sometimes a 3bet squeeze. Perhaps 90% call and 10% squeeze?

    I know you did end up calling (for good reason), but why would you think this is an easy fold?

    I ran this through Poker Cruncher and your hand has 19% equity, utg has 22.5% assuming he's only opening a 9% range and 4 loose passive overcallers have around 14-15% each. I base this on some pretty wide calling ranges which is the big mistake here in this game that I think you really need to exploit: people overcalling $15 utg open with hands like J4s and J8o. Thus 45s is an easy call here with 19% equity and ability outplay people post flop.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Arriving on this flop raises some issues for our hand, despite flopping well. As played, utg is repping the overpair or maybe AJ. Still, some people will cbet 100% in these spots like it's still 2006 Party Poker. So there is some air left in utg's range. HJ poses problem as he has a lot of flush draws in his range.

    I like a call here. You're still pretty deep and if you miss turn (say a 10h) it may check around and if so you bomb river with a pot size shove on all brick rivers. I think check raising or even check shipping flop just gets utg to hate life but call you with AJ QQ+. And HJ may even stick it in here with A, K, or Q spade draws and some slow played sets. Mostly, though, I worry about utg having what he's representing. Those hands usually can find a fold on most runouts by river, though and you can also hit your hand.

    As far as establishing a wild image, I don't think it's ever good. I make HUGE moves and my main objective is to establish a tight/solid image and I make people make huge folds against me when I put them in on runouts that are obviously bad for their range after manipulating SPR into my favor. I personally don't think there is ANY benefit in creating doubt in the minds of low stakes players. There's too many printing spots and that should always be the goal.

    Is your main objective at 1-3 to show up with the best hand by river and get paid? If so a wild image may be beneficial. Does this work for you? Are you able to show up with the good often enough?

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    I personally never worry about establishing an image. Compared to the rest of the general population, I play aggressively enough that the image will get established in short order regardless.

    I especially wouldn't put any effort into establishing a specific image at a table where you're brand new and don't know what type of image you want, or if anyone will even care what your image is.

    In short, I'd say just play your strategy and let image fall into place, then adjust later if (and only if) people are responding differently to you.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's set aside the preflop call and the xr and any real strat.

    Do the kind of players who create six way, 3.3 spr pots care about your image? Either way, you have your answer.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for comments, everyone. Seems to weighing towards not making it a factor too much.

    Note: I purposefully did not write whether I consider an aggressive/bluffy desirable or not! I was just using this a concrete example of a time when a necessary side effect of a play would create an image and began wondering how much to factor that image's creation (either a desirable or undesirable one!) into your early-session play.

    I hear the initial voices as not worrying about it too much. I'll add that initial images can change very quickly, so the concern about establishing them in the first orbit or two is further minimized.

    Thank you again for your comments!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Right, calling there, now that we have the image thing settled, is not good.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Right, calling there, now that we have the image thing settled, is not good.

    Calling on the flop you're talking about right? And yeah I guess 100bb is just too shallow to call here as your FE on later streets is severely crippled. 200bb would you say you could call with intentions to take the pot away sometimes? I think I would be calling here usually, because I'm almost always 200bb effective.

    Or is it more you don't want to be in this pot drawing to a straight with 2 of your outs being possible horrible cards for you if one of your opponents hit the flush?
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    Snowie does fold....
    AKo+, AJs+, 77-55, JJ+

    I played around with some stack depths earlier ranging from 100bb-200bb. In a 3bet squeeze spot say MP opens $15 ($2\$5) gets 2 callers & SB squeezes to $70. At 100bb it's basically TT+ AK+ AJs+ to continue. As depth gets deeper hands like 54s-J10s becomes calls where as KQs becomes a fold because RIO I am guessing? What would you call squeeze with vs a competent tag?
    Mp1 opens $15
    Hj calls
    Co calls
    Sb squeeze to $70

    100bb depth calling range?
    150bb depth?
    200bb depth?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Talking pre, eatrun. Spr and position make this a losing vpip.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    . I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    You have a leak(s) :)

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Talking pre, eatrun. Spr and position make this a losing vpip.

    This is mind-blowing to me. I would NEVER fold here given how wide the ranges are of all the over callers as well as our ability to outplay 1-3 players on later streets. I have a ton of respect for your work and the way you think about the game, so I'm a bit surprised here. Are you saying it's a fold just from a GTO perspective, but in fact if you feel you have a solid postflop edge on your table mates you'd call?

    What about the fact that 45s has 19% equity in a 6 way pot where we only have to put $12 more to see flop with $90 already in there?
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.

    LOL. I guess I'm just LAGGY AF... I'm calling so wide here. It's a strategy I've built over thousands of live hours and I'm just not about to give up these spots that favor me so much.

    Honestly I'm probably 3bet squeezing here 10-30% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics.

  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    kenaces wrote: »
    . I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    You have a leak(s) :)

    They leaked first. That's what you guys fail to realize a lot I've noticed. 1-3 players SUCK and they make HUUUUUUGE mistakes all night long. I punish them for it. That's what I do. If they played perfect we would not be going 6 ways to a flop . They make HUGE postflop mistakes in these spots and I'm absolutely going to be in this pot with the hand with highest equity (besides OR).

    Please don't minimize my strategy just because it's different than that of your own. I'm not a TAG. And I don't play GTO at 1 fucking 3, because I make a much higher hourly than GTO would allow for.

    *Sorry how this comes off, but it's annoying listening to people telling me I have leaks when I make $55/hour at 2-5 and $24/ hour at 1-2 over 1,500 hours since I began tracking. I play differently.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.

    LOL. I guess I'm just LAGGY AF... I'm calling so wide here. It's a strategy I've built over thousands of live hours and I'm just not about to give up these spots that favor me so much.

    Honestly I'm probably 3bet squeezing here 10-30% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics.

    Squeezing is probably an exploit of aggression as live players don't continue wide enough. Curious what hands are profitable online in this spot? Probably impossible to know given no one opens 5bb online. Curious what SCs are showing a profit from the blinds MW though 3-4 ways.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    .
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.

    LOL. I guess I'm just LAGGY AF... I'm calling so wide here. It's a strategy I've built over thousands of live hours and I'm just not about to give up these spots that favor me so much.

    Honestly I'm probably 3bet squeezing here 10-30% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics.

    Squeezing is probably an exploit of aggression as live players don't continue wide enough. Curious what hands are profitable online in this spot? Probably impossible to know given no one opens 5bb online. Curious what SCs are showing a profit from the blinds MW though 3-4 ways.

    I'm never doing this online. I thought this was in the Live Poker Hands section?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.

    LOL. I guess I'm just LAGGY AF... I'm calling so wide here. It's a strategy I've built over thousands of live hours and I'm just not about to give up these spots that favor me so much.

    Honestly I'm probably 3bet squeezing here 10-30% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics.

    Squeezing is probably an exploit of aggression as live players don't continue wide enough. Curious what hands are profitable online in this spot? Probably impossible to know given no one opens 5bb online. Curious what SCs are showing a profit from the blinds MW though 3-4 ways.

    I'm never doing this online. I thought this was in the Live Poker Hands section?

    You wouldn't call this online?
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    .
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    xt49mb4fpd05.png

    Snowie is defending a pretty tight range in this spot, but really likes SCs down to 43s and even 53s-86s. I think Snowie avoids some higher gappers due to RIO.

    FLOP
    ulwhbw2xz1cu.png

    Basically only continues hands like 75s, T9s, 66, 77, etc. No naked SD in Snowie's range.

    Also as @EatRunPoker stated you should want a solid image as it's hard to make a hand. My worse sessions start out with being caught bluffing early and forced to make hands later. Seemed like every bluff yesterday got caught after I lost to Q high early in the session.

    vs the larger PFR bet size?

    jf559jtcee08.png

    y3nhaeuglufm.png

    I guess sizing does really matter. When I did $300 effective using $2/$5 and 3bb ($15) open it gave my first post. When I change it to $1/$2 with $10 open (5bb) which is the same as $1/$3 for $15 open it gives me the above info. Super tight range.

    What is your take on this range @kenaces

    Interesting only because I would have guessed Snowie folds because he/she is such a nit multiway.

    I am calling much wider closing the action(pairs/SBW/AXs/SCs)

    I'm calling even wider than that. We only have to call $12 to win $90 immediate not to mention possibly stack off. Such a profitable position to be in closing action pre. I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    I think as Snowie was suggesting vs 5bb open its a fold, 3bb open it's a call..5bb would need probably 150bb+ to call pre. I think people over estimate SCs here oop. Skill edge probably isn't high enough to make up for it because RIO. Look at the situation hero is in. Flops a decent draw and still doesn't know what to do. Low FE vs over pairs. Great set mine spot though. Don't really need any bluffs here postflop to make this profitable. Can just flat call Axs and shove your value range.

    LOL. I guess I'm just LAGGY AF... I'm calling so wide here. It's a strategy I've built over thousands of live hours and I'm just not about to give up these spots that favor me so much.

    Honestly I'm probably 3bet squeezing here 10-30% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics.

    Squeezing is probably an exploit of aggression as live players don't continue wide enough. Curious what hands are profitable online in this spot? Probably impossible to know given no one opens 5bb online. Curious what SCs are showing a profit from the blinds MW though 3-4 ways.

    I'm never doing this online. I thought this was in the Live Poker Hands section?

    You wouldn't call this online?

    I don't play cash online. Don't trust it one bit. This just wouldn't come up in the MTT's I play. Even then I'm only playing as a study tool on ACR.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, thanks. Everything I do is based around planning how to win with XX by the river, and at 3.3 spr OOP this will be very hard vs. rational opponents.

    Preflop prices are illusory in this context- hot/cold equities, for instance, are not Expected Value, which is the great measurement of all poker strategy.

    As Snowie demonstrates vs. rational play, when the spr is higher, the EV of the hand goes up. It's easy to imagine why this is the case.

    As for you outplaying your opposition, there is a lot of room, given a big enough skill or tendency edge - that can only be answered by you vis a vis your opposition. I would simply ask you to examine very honestly how you are doing at any situation where you are accepting fundamental disadvantages, and draw some conclusions from there about your opponents, yourself, and for when you move up.

    As for GTO - no one is truly qualified to say what the standard is for a six way pot, but I would point out one key: there is no "Burden of Defense" here for the BB - that was shed when the others kept the opener from overprofiting. So the question becomes very pure: can I play this hand profitably from here? If you can, or if they just let you, more power to you.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Talking pre, eatrun. Spr and position make this a losing vpip.

    This is mind-blowing to me. I would NEVER fold here given how wide the ranges are of all the over callers as well as our ability to outplay 1-3 players on later streets. I have a ton of respect for your work and the way you think about the game, so I'm a bit surprised here. Are you saying it's a fold just from a GTO perspective, but in fact if you feel you have a solid postflop edge on your table mates you'd call?

    What about the fact that 45s has 19% equity in a 6 way pot where we only have to put $12 more to see flop with $90 already in there?

    How often do you think you get to realize this equity in a 6 way pot?
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Well, thanks. Everything I do is based around planning how to win with XX by the river, and at 3.3 spr OOP this will be very hard vs. rational opponents.

    Preflop prices are illusory in this context- hot/cold equities, for instance, are not Expected Value, which is the great measurement of all poker strategy.

    As Snowie demonstrates vs. rational play, when the spr is higher, the EV of the hand goes up. It's easy to imagine why this is the case.

    As for you outplaying your opposition, there is a lot of room, given a big enough skill or tendency edge - that can only be answered by you vis a vis your opposition. I would simply ask you to examine very honestly how you are doing at any situation where you are accepting fundamental disadvantages, and draw some conclusions from there about your opponents, yourself, and for when you move up.

    As for GTO - no one is truly qualified to say what the standard is for a six way pot, but I would point out one key: there is no "Burden of Defense" here for the BB - that was shed when the others kept the opener from overprofiting. So the question becomes very pure: can I play this hand profitably from here? If you can, or if they just let you, more power to you.

    Well said my man, as usual. I think you articulated the situation perfectly and the only split in how we would approach this hand is our faith in how much "rational play" we will encounter. I see very little rational play at 1-2 and 1-3. Also I game select pretty well, because I play for a living and support a family as a stay-at-home Dad, so I am generally playing in some really soft games in order to maximize my hourly. (My wife works full time so I'm in a great spot, but still I tend to seek the best hours, best rooms, best tables).

    So I would agree that this is probably much closer to a fold against a table of computers, but I just don't play in those games, and I would bet most of our fellow members, if they were very honest, are not playing in those games either.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever seen the 1-3 game at Golden Nugget AC? 😂
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've played there a few times, and we will try to get a meet up game there or at Borgata in Sept.

    I mean, I know all about how goofy these games can be that you all play in. My students recount hands to me that are simply... amazing. It doesn't mean I can immediately advise things that are on the loose end... some games really are tough, or at least action tough. As Ninjah suggests, you just won't get to often realize or outplay anyone with 54s from the blinds in capped games where players are fighting for the pot.

    So I see both sides. As for me, my preferred poker room shut down this summer, killing/dispersing the big game scene, and I have been playing small at a fun little place for the last week.

    My welcome to 1/3? Losing in a 4 bet pot to 27o... which called.
  • EatRunPokerEatRunPoker NY, NYRed Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I've played there a few times, and we will try to get a meet up game there or at Borgata in Sept.

    I mean, I know all about how goofy these games can be that you all play in. My students recount hands to me that are simply... amazing. It doesn't mean I can immediately advise things that are on the loose end... some games really are tough, or at least action tough. As Ninjah suggests, you just won't get to often realize or outplay anyone with 54s from the blinds in capped games where players are fighting for the pot.

    So I see both sides. As for me, my preferred poker room shut down this summer, killing/dispersing the big game scene, and I have been playing small at a fun little place for the last week.

    My welcome to 1/3? Losing in a 4 bet pot to 27o... which called.

    Count me in on that meet up. Would love to meet up with some fellow east coasters. I will be down for much of the Borgata tournament series this month anyways.

    And yeah, you will find people calling off with 27o and also people folding KK preflop. It's an entire world of absurdity. I have carved out a very special niche strategy at these stakes, but looking to step into the 5-10 and 10-10 games this fall as my bankroll has recently expanded to include those games. I am interested to see if I am still the best player at the table in these games... I'm sure the challenge will be real.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    . I think 45s is literally the best possible hand to have in this spot. I would call 45o and 47s.

    You have a leak(s) :)

    They leaked first. That's what you guys fail to realize a lot I've noticed. 1-3 players SUCK and they make HUUUUUUGE mistakes all night long. I punish them for it. That's what I do. If they played perfect we would not be going 6 ways to a flop . They make HUGE postflop mistakes in these spots and I'm absolutely going to be in this pot with the hand with highest equity (besides OR).

    Please don't minimize my strategy just because it's different than that of your own. I'm not a TAG. And I don't play GTO at 1 fucking 3, because I make a much higher hourly than GTO would allow for.

    *Sorry how this comes off, but it's annoying listening to people telling me I have leaks when I make $55/hour at 2-5 and $24/ hour at 1-2 over 1,500 hours since I began tracking. I play differently.

    It ain't personal dude - just poker
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Talking pre, eatrun. Spr and position make this a losing vpip.

    This is mind-blowing to me. I would NEVER fold here given how wide the ranges are of all the over callers as well as our ability to outplay 1-3 players on later streets. I have a ton of respect for your work and the way you think about the game, so I'm a bit surprised here. Are you saying it's a fold just from a GTO perspective, but in fact if you feel you have a solid postflop edge on your table mates you'd call?

    What about the fact that 45s has 19% equity in a 6 way pot where we only have to put $12 more to see flop with $90 already in there?

    How often do you think you get to realize this equity in a 6 way pot?

    +1 to this

    And how often in bloated MW pot OOP are you going to effectively create any fold equity?

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