Dealing with high (12-28%) 3betting

Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
edited September 2018 in Online Poker Hands
In my games - not always - but quite often, there will be 3+ players at the table 3betting at this frequency. On RIO, they've suggested specifically *not* calling with a wider range as a means to combat this and instead 4b bluffing with a wider range. The thing is that these same villains are often calling 4bets and then the postflop situation can be extremely difficult. How do we best contend with this dymanic and what should be our mindset moving forward with it?

Thanks

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IP going to be different than oop obviously.

    1) Tighten your opening range
    2) Your stronger hands open larger, so they have to 3 bet larger, and stack leverage comes sooner.
    3) Postflop tendencies will determine if you should be merged or polarized with your 4 bets. If they are never folding to 4 bets, then I lean towards a merged ranged with a lot of suited broadways and just stacking off with top pair. I would lower my cbet % as the SPR in a 4 bet pot is likely only 1-3. Any cbet will leave you past commitment threshold.

    The thing is that these same villains are often calling 4bets and then the postflop situation can be extremely difficult.
    Opening too wide preflop and 4 betting too light.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

    BTN: $5.86 (VPIP: 24.44, PFR: 24.44, 3Bet Preflop: 15.63, Hands: 94)
    SB: $3.44 (VPIP: 15.12, PFR: 11.63, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 88)
    Hero (BB): $5.00
    UTG: $4.66 (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 22)
    MP: $7.87 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 19.09, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 112)
    CO: $6.20 (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 52)

    SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Ts Th
    fold, MP raises to $0.14, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.09

    Flop : ($0.30, 2 players) Jd 7s 3d
    Hero checks, MP bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14

    Turn : ($0.58, 2 players) Kc
    Hero checks, MP bets $0.42, fold

    MP wins $0.56
    Rake paid $0.02

    Look at the lines on those players. How am I supposed to contend with this? It's not rhetorical but I just played another couple hands. Went up about $1.60, got dc'd, came back, ended down $0.90 with tables full of 12/11/6 and 42/38/29's, etc. They just *never stop* betting. Flop turn and river agg % is all 80-100%. Basically, without a very strong hand - I just don't know what to do. I can only see a more aggressive, higher variance approach as being viable here. If I peel more flops they barrel the turn relentlessly for 65% pot. If I call that, they fire a 3rd barrel for 75-110% pot. That said, I do understand we are talking about small sample sizes and I'm going to put in more volume but I'm just saying that the agg is off the charts pretty consistently here.

    I played at like 17/13/4 with a 2 AF and I was noticeably passive compared to the other players. All ~inf~ AF other than myself and a couple of other guys I noticed across all of 5NL.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    I played at like 17/13/4 with a 2 AF and I was noticeably passive compared to the other players. All ~inf~ AF other than myself and a couple of other guys I noticed across all of 5NL.

    Not sure why you started a thread on 3/4/5b game and then post HH where you CC in BB. Pick something work on it, practice, play it. Then move to something else but you have to focus on one topic long enough to learn it.

    7/13/4 is too tight for online 6m. So maybe start with getting better at the preflop game.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    I played at like 17/13/4 with a 2 AF and I was noticeably passive compared to the other players. All ~inf~ AF other than myself and a couple of other guys I noticed across all of 5NL.

    Not sure why you started a thread on 3/4/5b game and then post HH where you CC in BB. Pick something work on it, practice, play it. Then move to something else but you have to focus on one topic long enough to learn it.

    7/13/4 is too tight for online 6m. So maybe start with getting better at the preflop game.

    I said I posted the hand to show the stat lines of the other players at the table, not because the cc in the bb had any relevancy to the discussion at hand in itself.

    I told you why I have to tighten up in those games: The 3betting, as well as postflop betting, is relentless. Widening my ranges only means dealing with more difficult spots and larger pots. I was rethinking the session and guys were OR'ing about 15% from MP/CO, to 2bb, and then 1/2 potting the flop 100% of the time. If I 3bet, they call almost 100% of the time.
  • GForce78NJGForce78NJ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    you need to get in the mix a bit more, 3 betting 10-10 is standard. What are they showing up with when it goes to showdown? Pay attention to this even when you are not in the hand. I've called shoves from over aggressive players with top pair weak kicker if the player is bluffing at a high frequency. Definitely watch some videos on fixing your pre-flop game as well - super important. Don't be afraid to 3-bet AJss, AQ, AK, 99 etc. You will get paid off when you hit your hand if they are as you are suggesting.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Play smaller stakes.
    Tighten the range.
    Change your table.

    Choices.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 273 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I think the plan here is to play more hands more aggressively. 3b hands like 87s IP, 4b bluff more, get it in lighter.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I think the plan here is to play more hands more aggressively. 3b hands like 87s IP, 4b bluff more, get it in lighter.

    I just think it's ridiculous that you have to start playing this way at 5NL. This wasn't like this even a few months ago. I've seen tons of hand histories from $1/2 casino games and they were *nothing* like this. Last night, after this, I was at a table with a 19/19/9, 22/20/13, 30/28/25, etc. Come on, now lol.

    That does seem to be the trick, though. I'm seeing some of these players (which is very strange) playing 5NL, 10NL, and 25NL all at once. 10 tables in total. They're clearly over rolled for their stakes, bluffing at a very high frequency, and they just need to be played back at as aggressively. The thing is that I can't help but wonder why these guys are at 5NL tables at 3am EST.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 273 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I know it's tough but this is how you really learn and improve. Put yourself in difficult line ups.This is what all good players do: taking a shot, get destroyed, learn, study, improve, come back stronger. Thats the circle. Get destroyed until you beat them. Good BRM is the key.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
    I know it's tough but this is how you really learn and improve. Put yourself in difficult line ups.This is what all good players do: taking a shot, get destroyed, learn, study, improve, come back stronger. Thats the circle. Get destroyed until you beat them. Good BRM is key.

    I'm not just saying it when I state that I'm having fun. I really am. I think I've held off on depositing some money back on the rec networks long enough, though. I'm going to start putting in some 10NL/25NL volume on those again, too. That + continuing to pound at these WPN games + study heavily should definitely = nice improvement.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    I think the plan here is to play more hands more aggressively. 3b hands like 87s IP, 4b bluff more, get it in lighter.

    I just think it's ridiculous that you have to start playing this way at 5NL. This wasn't like this even a few months ago. I've seen tons of hand histories from $1/2 casino games and they were *nothing* like this. Last night, after this, I was at a table with a 19/19/9, 22/20/13, 30/28/25, etc. Come on, now lol.

    That does seem to be the trick, though. I'm seeing some of these players (which is very strange) playing 5NL, 10NL, and 25NL all at once. 10 tables in total. They're clearly over rolled for their stakes, bluffing at a very high frequency, and they just need to be played back at as aggressively. The thing is that I can't help but wonder why these guys are at 5NL tables at 3am EST.

    No matter what the table conditions 17/13/4 is never going to make money - it is just too tight.

    Move to Ignition and/or global poker + keep working on your game
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 729 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    I think the plan here is to play more hands more aggressively. 3b hands like 87s IP, 4b bluff more, get it in lighter.

    I just think it's ridiculous that you have to start playing this way at 5NL. This wasn't like this even a few months ago. I've seen tons of hand histories from $1/2 casino games and they were *nothing* like this. Last night, after this, I was at a table with a 19/19/9, 22/20/13, 30/28/25, etc. Come on, now lol.

    That does seem to be the trick, though. I'm seeing some of these players (which is very strange) playing 5NL, 10NL, and 25NL all at once. 10 tables in total. They're clearly over rolled for their stakes, bluffing at a very high frequency, and they just need to be played back at as aggressively. The thing is that I can't help but wonder why these guys are at 5NL tables at 3am EST.

    No matter what the table conditions 17/13/4 is never going to make money - it is just too tight.

    Move to Ignition and/or global poker + keep working on your game

    I don't play every session like that but I'm experimenting with different styles. That said - No, 19/13/6 or 17/12/5, etc hasn't been profitable in these games. The most profitable sessions were more like 24/20/13, playing back more aggressively and taking more chances.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭✭
    Well if the nit stats were just from one session who cares - you might have just been card/spot dead.

    Poker includes risk/variance that can NOT be controlled or avoided. So don't waste your time trying to control the uncontrollable. Instead, work on your game.

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