Donk bet into my QQ

AlanPeAlanPe Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
1/2NL Live game. I am MP1 with QQ. Two limp ahead of me and I raise to 10. Everyone folds and one limp calls. Flop comes A97 rainbow. He bets 10 into me.

This really happened, what should I have done? And this was my 3rd hand at the table, so I know nothing about the players.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,704 -
    With no information I think either calling or folding are fine.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    There are one or few RCP pro video about donkbetting.

    If someone who limp then donkbet with an underbet (10 into almost 30), then I'm raising him with ATC. Fact is: often such raise are with a bad AX trying to look where he is at.
    • Folding is (for me) out of question. You're losing too much of equity against a weak player. Also QQ is good against MP (JJ, TT, 9X) and (weak) draws.
    • Calling is imho value owning ourselves. If Villain donk with a med/weak AX, calling only gives him our chips without a fight. (And I'm not sure that the casual 1/2 population bluff enough to turn QQ into a bluff catcher, compared to all the times he hold a med/bad AX)
    • Raising (exploitatively) is to me better. Villain limped so is capped as he can't have AK or AQ (which we also strongly block); so at best AJ. If he want to know where he is at, raising him will make him fold almost very often as we rep TP2K+. Also if he donk/3bet, it's clear he has a 2P/set and we can fold (losing the same chips we would have paid by calling flop and turn)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,704 -
    10 into 24/5 with standard rake. Can you not call flop with the intention of raising the turn a la Miller?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    Good proposition. Maybe I could if I've more info about Villain.
    Considering it's our 3rd hand, I prefer to be "too aggro" and show that others shall not try to fool around. Also if Villain turn c-bet, it's maybe scary to raise turn (depending on how many bad AX we expect to not turn c-bet)
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    This happens a lot online. People tend to have top pairs and gutshots. If there are no straight draws I usually give them a lot of credit. I like raising here as @Red said, if he calls and donks again it's a clear fold.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    This happens a lot online. People tend to have top pairs and gutshots. If there are no straight draws I usually give them a lot of credit. I like raising here as @Red said, if he calls and donks again it's a clear fold.

    Agree online. Live 1/2$, this is very often med AX Villain was too weak to open and too bad to fold.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    QQ doesn't really have equity here. You're using your initiative and position to put pressure on your opponent. That is more essential than your hole cards at this point. Consider them two random cards and ask yourself if you have enough fold equity to justify your aggression and, if so, where to use it.

    In addition, why are we completely dismissing the possibility of V having a set?

    Ultimately, the question here is when you want to show aggression. An argument could be made for the flop (a strong play when an opponent often "bets to see where he's at"; you can generate a lot of folds) or the turn (if V checks, then you bet; if V leads out light; then you raise -- looks like you were trying to trap him).

    In either case, if V proves to be sticky (i.e., not folding) or shows more aggression (i.e., re-raising or betting big on the turn), then you'll just have to let this one go.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    In addition, why are we completely dismissing the possibility of V having a set?

    V can't have AA and should not have 99 that often (opens with? Maybe he has 1 or 2 combos of 99). You can consider 44 (3 combos). Also, if Villain can donk, I think he can c-r as well, which discounts (a bit) the chance he donks with a set.
    I didn't talk about sets, but to me they are marginal compare to the many AX combos.
    (Also H reaction, as you said, is to give no action if V shows any further aggression)

    Nota bene: we have but to add also the lucky 2P combos aka A9 and A4, which are more combos than sets here. But again, our future plan of action stays the same.

    Ultimately, the question here is when you want to show aggression. ... or the turn (if V checks, then you bet; if V leads out light; then you raise -- looks like you were trying to trap him).
    I agree if V check, our stab has much FE.
    But do you really think to have enough FE against someone who donks and turn c-bet ? I doubt...


  • ScoutsEatTheirYoungScoutsEatTheirYoung Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    This type of donk lead on polarizing boards has been happening a lot to me. We have clear range advantage yet we get donked into.

    Random 1/2 player: it’s a 4-5x raise with my entire range. I find with the small lead, a 3x raise gets called by villains entire range. I can capitalize on his donk lead, with a plan to fold to 3 bets and re-evaluate turns.

    It does leave me confused on turns I check back on how to proceed on rivers.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When you raise to 10, you lay the limper, who intended to call, 8 to win 17.

    There are few hands that should fold which simultaneously anticipated your action and see this price, so you don't punish their strategy, you play into it by sizing this way. Which is fine as long as you are aware of it and are happy to deal with less clarity, as the EV of raising this size does allow you to raise more hands.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    1/2NL Live game. I am MP1 with QQ. Two limp ahead of me and I raise to 10. Everyone folds and one limp calls. Flop comes A97 rainbow. He bets 10 into me.

    My 2 cents on this is that everyone wants some "action" when they get AA-QQ, so they "lower" the price to entice other players in because otherwise it's a "waste" of a premium hand. If everyone limp, folds when you raise to $15-$20, and you do this twice and hour, your making between $10-20 an hour at $1/2, which is respectable, without ever seeing a flop. This can be like $15-$30 an hour at $1/3. Generally this doesn't work at $2/5, cause players have realized limp folding is bad. This is an exaggeration of how it will really go, but you get the idea. Sometimes I UTG open $ $12 my standard size with AA and everyone folds around. I used to get annoyed by this, but now I'm indifferent. Each table is it's own unique ecosystem, and you should figure out a default strategy that works at any table, and then as you get a feel for the table make adjustments. But laying a super cheap price after 2 limpers is never a good idea, unless as @persuadeo pointed out, you are playing a ton of hands, or these players are really weak and you are an experienced player who doesn't mind playing a ton of pots with a ton of different hands because you will be able to make up the money on later streets with your superior skill. The first step of poker is to punish and diminish edge by laying them improper pricing to see a flop, which generally means A. Playing better cards than them and B. Laying an unfavorable price to stay in the pot to see a flop, which a ton of $1/2, $1/3 players will do. Just try to remember my "if you get dealt 25 hands an hour, and only play 2, and with 2 uncontest pots of $10 and $7, that's $17 an hour, without drop *at least at my casino no flop, no drop*".


    *A while back it dawned on me that stealing limps was super lucrative, and yet, after about an hour or two, people would catch onto the fact that I was super wide, especially from the CO and BU, and I would do my favorite thing which was, at the time, triple barreling almost everything, because I assumed, and was often correct, many people cannot stand up to 3 streets of pressure with marginal hands. The problem is, that while is this correct often, all it takes is 1 time of someone deciding enough is enough, and 2 hours of stealing 5-9 pots an hour of $10-40 pots only to punt of off $350 doesn't make for a good poker by smashing fold equity. Pick up pots were you can, be smart in constructing your bluffs. And don't be unhappy with picking up 1-3 limp folded pots an hour with good hands.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Good call about adding A9 and A4 as non-zero possibilities.
    Red wrote: »

    Ultimately, the question here is when you want to show aggression. ... or the turn (if V checks, then you bet; if V leads out light; then you raise -- looks like you were trying to trap him).
    I agree if V check, our stab has much FE.
    But do you really think to have enough FE against someone who donks and turn c-bet ? I doubt...

    I wrote if V double-barrels "light", i.e., "same bet" or just ups it to, say, $15. If V double-barrels a healthy amount, then, yes, I'd be folding.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,704 -
    Red wrote: »
    Good proposition. Maybe I could if I've more info about Villain.
    Considering it's our 3rd hand, I prefer to be "too aggro" and show that others shall not try to fool around. Also if Villain turn c-bet, it's maybe scary to raise turn (depending on how many bad AX we expect to not turn c-bet)

    Oh that's a really interesting stylistic/strategy point. My instinct on the 3rd hand is to be less aggro.

    Agree with persuadeo a bigger preflop raise is better.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Good proposition. Maybe I could if I've more info about Villain.
    Considering it's our 3rd hand, I prefer to be "too aggro" and show that others shall not try to fool around. Also if Villain turn c-bet, it's maybe scary to raise turn (depending on how many bad AX we expect to not turn c-bet)

    Oh that's a really interesting stylistic/strategy point. My instinct on the 3rd hand is to be less aggro.

    Agree with persuadeo a bigger preflop raise is better.

    Splitsuit advises oft to be too aggro at first, setting our position up so we don't get bullied too much later :)

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