KQs delayed c-bet; NL50Zoom

Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
I'll jump right in.

Hero ($65) is Button with :Kd :Qd
Villain ($50) is SB

Folds to Hero

Hero opens to $1.50
SB calls; BB folds

FLOP ($3.25)

:Js :2c :3c

SB checks; Hero checks

TURN ($3.25)

:Js :2c :3c :Qs

SB checks; Hero Bets $1.75; SB Raises to $5.50; Hero Calls

RIVER ($14.25)

:Js :2c :3c :Qs :Kc

SB Bets $7.50; Hero?


I'm interested in the flop: do you c-bet here and how big?
On the turn, I think it's a clear call, as I'm almost exactly at the top of my range.
On the river, I'm never folding, so that's out, but call or raise are both possible. A raise for value is pretty thin (are there any value targets besides QJ and KJ? There are a lot more :Xc :Xc or :9h :Th or sets in villains range here than those two dominated two pair holdings) - do you go for value here, or take a showdown with straights and flushes still possible?

Comments

  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 728 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I would think that calling would be the highest ev play. If you raise - what do you raise to? You give V an excellent chance to bluff over the top of you at that point, blowing you off your equity entirely. I would call here and take notes on villain based off of showdown.
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    I would think that calling would be the highest ev play. If you raise - what do you raise to? You give V an excellent chance to bluff over the top of you at that point, blowing you off your equity entirely. I would call here and take notes on villain based off of showdown.

    If I raised (I didn't) I'd go to about $18-$20 hoping to be looked up by a worse 2pair or a KT that's curious. If i get shoved on here, do you think that there are a lot of Zoom50 players (or nl50 population) that could 3bet the river as a bluff vs an unknown?
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 728 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't know about 50NL(z) to that extent. You'll have to have someone who has experience in those games expand upon that. Still, I would avoid that situation entirely since you don't have info on villain. The size of that pot after the call, the info you'll get at showdown, and the fact that you can close the action all makes this an easy call, IMO. From what I've seen of hand histories and videos: Yeah - V could bluff shove river here representing the flush w/o it. I don't think that would be a *common* play, though.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭✭
    CB flop ~1/3 PSB

    I think checking back BTNvBB on these big little little flops is a leak
  • OccamTheOtterOccamTheOtter Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    That flop looks like a good c-bet spot. We have over cards, it's not too likely villian hit the board hard, and if we get check-raised we aren't getting blown off a ton of equity. Readless on villian, I'm c-betting.

    As far as sizing goes, I am pretty bad at bet sizing (I was out of poker for awhile, and the theory around c-bet sizing has changed quite a bit). I wouldn't go more than 1/2 pot.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭
    Baby_Shark wrote: »
    On the turn, I think it's a clear call, as I'm almost exactly at the top of my range.
    Funny you bring this up, i watched a video today about debunking this very dangerous heuristic.

    The top of your range means nothing when your Villain don't have enough bluffs to choose from. In this case on turn it is less applicable obviously but be careful with this thinking.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    CB flop ~1/3 PSB

    I think checking back BTNvBB on these big little little flops is a leak

    This is surely a must bet board.
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Thank you all, I'll look at the boards I'm attacking more closely.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    What are the logical bluffs does your villain has in this spot considering what you are blocking is an important question to answer here. It will help you determine what is the relation of his bet size with his betting range and consequently what should be the best answer to his bet.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,766 -
    Some great points here, but one thing that intrigues me: this is an odd board for SB to check twice with the plan to check raise. With what range should the SB take that line?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Some great points here, but one thing that intrigues me: this is an odd board for SB to check twice with the plan to check raise. With what range should the SB take that line?

    Could it be one of either flush draw that likes free cards, but doesn't want to just call. Could be a flush draw that improves to combo draw? Perhaps they think my checking range includes a lot of c/c (which is true, you see here I'm not cbetting enough) but will often give up vs an x/r...?

    Or it could be QJ ... (Spoiler alert)
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    CB flop ~1/3 PSB

    I think checking back BTNvBB on these big little little flops is a leak

    This is surely a must bet board.

    I've done some reading and research on this point. Let me talk through my thinking to see if I'm on the right track.

    This is a must-bet board for the following reasons:
    1. I have a huge range advantage here, so I should bet my entire range small. (villain will be 3-betting widest from the SB vs BUT compared to any other battle; so when he flats, he has a narrow range of middling implied odds hands that are good enough to call, not weak enough to bluff, and not strong enough to 3b for value. Villain never has an overpair, AJ is not in his range either, so he's capped at sets of 222, 333 (both may 3b as bluff though), Jx where x is suited and likely smaller than a K, and some non-nut flushdraws or 3-straight3-flushes)
    2. This flop is hard to hit, as villain rarely has 2x or 3x and there's only the J there as a big card to hit.
    3. This flop is not the wettest of wet flops, as straight draws are hard to have (wheel aces probably 3b bluff, 45s also a 3b bluff...) and flush draws are never a huge part of villain's range
    4. In this specific situation, with 2 overs, I can semibluff comfortably and fold happily if I face a flop x/r

    I remember my thinking on the flop: "Oh, this is a wet flop, so I should C-Bet at least 2/3 pot, but I don't want to bet that big with this hand: I can check back as I have overs and a 3-straight that could turn equity, and if villain checks the turn on a brick, I can c-bet then"

    If I instead bet 1/3 pot on the flop with my whole range when I have a range advantage like this spot, I can pick up more pots, and take advantage of more elastic calls when I do show up here with AA or JJJ.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Yeah you pretty much nailed it. But be aware that'll you'll need to call lighter then usual when the SB x/r the flop after your small CB, if you suspect him to bluff enough or too much.

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