Pre-flop 3betting more -- a primer needed

moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭
I am asking this for live play rather than for online or tourney play.

Last night, it was incredibly profitable NOT to 3bet pre-flop at my game. Just sit back, call, apply pressure post-flop with napkins, gather up the pot, and only get in a big amount of change with a made hand. There was little reason to have a purposeful pre-flop 3bet strategy in that particular game; it was a good game to deviate from my standardized more aggressive 3bet play.

So went my thinking.

If I'm being honest with myself, that might the case. It also might be the case that that was a convenient -- though profitable -- excuse to justify not employing what I can only confess is not a fully-developed 3bet strategy.

I now turn to you.

While I am not at ground zero here, I do think that I need to go back and purposefully reconstruct my 3bet strategy from the ground up. Even though I do have some targeted questions, I'll start by keeping it open more broadly and asking you what you think that I need (or anyone needs) to consider as a baseline for the development of a cohesive pre-flop 3bet strategy.

Thank you in advance -- any thoughts, questions, or guidance is welcome!

Comments

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 206 ✭✭✭
    This is a good topic. I also found myself in a game the other night where a lot of 3-betting preflop was not really going to fit the bill. This was a 1/3 game where 5 or 6 players had stacks between 70 and 160, AND there were several people at the table that were just not disciplined enough to fold their marginal (or just plain bad) holdings preflop. In games like this, I shift to a strictly value-oriented 3-bet strategy until stacks allow more play.

    So, like many things in poker, the primary factor I would recommend you consider here is stack size.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited September 13
    Andrew Brokos has a few videos here on Red Chip he did awhile back on 3 betting that are an excellent place to start
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭
    I have tetter-tottered back and forth on this my entire poker crappy recreational career, but the conclusion I've come to for myself, is that...it depends on the game. In games where they just limp, call KJ but will never open it, 3-betting is a bad idea. Cause that means when they do open, it's like AQ, AK, JJ+. In games where they open :TC: :9C: , it's a good idea, because most likely they will fold that, or if they do call it, they don't really wanna play for all the chips unless they got a monster, and suited connectors don't really flop a monster too often. Basically there has to FE to their opens. In one such game a while back, I was opening a ton and crushing the game. This is the type of game I used to smash for like $65 an hour at $1/3, they limp call a ton, a few bad players open hands they aren't willing to defend, and then they are fit or fold on the flop. A really tight woman who limp called and limp folded a ton opened to $12 and I folded AJss behind her, but as I was tossing it in, it flipped up. The table went nuts, cause they'd seen me playing you know everything in the world, but I know for a fact this woman is only opening JJ+ AK, AQo lightest. Everyone is being like "WHAT YOU FOLDED THAT" to which I say "I'll give you $5 right here ma'ma if you can show me cards worse than 10's or AK", and she showed KK. I guess the point is, there is a strategy that works no matter what, GTO or balanced or whatever, and then there is exploitative strategy, which I generally have to ride a lot on since my math sucks and my game theory is really unpolished. So when I sit down, I 3-bet only QQ+AK as my default, until I get a feel for the table. Then I deviate as I see fit based on player or table.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭
    I assume you are talking exclusively about AK? You're still 3betting JJ+ no doubt yes?

    I find that if people don't fold to often then I don't need to 3bet and can dump money in much safer on a favorable flop. But if they are folding to my raises then I'll mix in the AK. The more they fold the wider I 3bet.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There arw twin articles by Brokos in the 2+2 magazine, which is a more serious source than most, on 3 betting that i find compelling. Finding them now is the issue.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    There arw twin articles by Brokos in the 2+2 magazine, which is a more serious source than most, on 3 betting that i find compelling. Finding them now is the issue.

    I'll follow up on that.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    So we have this playlist for PRO users: https://redchippoker.com/pro/playlists/never-stop-3betting/ but I'm wondering if it would be useful to put together a more structured course on the topic with quizzes and missions?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    I assume you are talking exclusively about AK? You're still 3betting JJ+ no doubt yes?

    I find that if people don't fold to often then I don't need to 3bet and can dump money in much safer on a favorable flop. But if they are folding to my raises then I'll mix in the AK. The more they fold the wider I 3bet.

    So you are 3 betting only your premium starting hands because you want them to fold?
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭
    So you are 3 betting only your premium starting hands because you want them to fold?

    I think the point is that if the table has players opening wide, but not defending a ton of hands, you should 3-bet wider. At a table where players will open only very solid hands, but limp fold ton of medium hands, opening wider in position becomes the best play, but also depending on stack depth, calling IP because really solid because having a wide array of hands vs a narrow yet strong range makes playing your hand easier, yet playing against you when you are so wide for them becomes very hard.


    This may only be partially true though, because back when I was playing a lot more, my default when sitting down was to 3-bet wide. And usually, I'd pick up a lot of pots, because people at $1/2, $1/3, give a lot of credit to 3-bets, folding hands as strong as KQ. But due to my lack of a true coherent strategy, besides the fact that "I 3-bet lol I should have range advantage here lemme smash chips into the middle for 3 streets FE is my God", it ultimately would end up in me punting off my stack after a really profitable first hour or two. I'm sure good players can math and prove that even vs a tight 3-bet calling range, hand selection will allow you to still 3-bet wide, pick up the opens occasionally, and then apply both difficult pressure, and go for max, thin value with your best hands. But that person was not me. I'd get lost on the turn or river when I 3-bet A10ss, got called, flop came out K Q 4, I bet flop, they call, turn doesn't bring in my BD FD, and they check again and now I'm like uhhhhhh would I bet AK again? AQ? Time to give up? I still got sets of KK and QQ, so if I'd bet those, I gotta bet this! Point is, having a wide 3-bet range means you gotta be able to navigate your range that much clearer on each street, and when you have a pretty tight 3-bet range, your actions become much clearer I suppose. I think that was the appeal of short stacking to me at least initially: the correct "play" was so easy, because A. Small selection of hands means B. Not that many actions to think of on the flop and then C. By the turn, your decision is made, and you have the math to prove it much easier than playing a deeper stacked, larger. There was very little room for error, yet the aspects of the game that allow for a lot more profitability where not available to me, but I never left the casino with doubts about my actions. Talk about clicking buttons in a watered down version of the game.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭
    Sully wrote: »
    So you are 3 betting only your premium starting hands because you want them to fold?
    The opposite. They don't know if I'm 3-betting premium or not. If im 3-betting only premium and they are folding then they are playing correct against me. The answer to that is to 3-bet wider. If I'm 3-betting wide and they are not folding then I adjust to a narrower premium range.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited September 16
    My point was (which I did a miserable job of making) was that whether villains are folding preflop is the least important consideration in 3bets (and least profitable)

    How villains play post flop in 3bet pots is much, much more important, followed by stack depth in determining 3 betting frequencies and ranges

    IMO

  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 891 ✭✭✭
    I made a similar post a while back, and got some pretty good advice.

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/comment/72940#Comment_72940


    A couple of these replies I like to read read when things go a little wrong with a few 3 bets.


    my starting approach was to use Ed Millers 3 bet ranges from The Course. These are basically balanced ranges (between bluffs and value) with the ranges being wider against players with wider raising ranges. It at least got me 3 betting more, and getting a feel for how players in my games react.

    I know often go to extreme exploits, in loose deep games going to pure value, and in nit reg games, going to almost total bluff against certain players. I also tend to use a very very large 3 bet range when isolating the one big whale with an very wide 3 bet value range. Things like whale makes it 10 I make it 25 with KJo or 33 (if deep) if 25 will get the whale isolated.


  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭
    A belated but much-appreciated thank you to everyone for your comments.

    @Eazzy: I noticed (with some sheepishness and embarrassment now! :) ) in the thread that you referenced that you had started a post of mine which still resonates.

    I also recall @Austin writing in that thread that sometimes you have to go back and re-read things to get the basics back into your head. I think that's where I was at here.

    Thank you all again for your thoughts, suggestions, and help resetting!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    @moishetreats @persuadeo FYI after a period of intense negotiations rivaling Brexit I'm confident we'll be able to bring those Brokos articles to RCP. Will update.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So you're saying it's going to be Soft Three-betting, in the end.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    So you're saying it's going to be Soft Three-betting, in the end.

    With a back-stop yeah.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭
    Sully wrote: »
    My point was (which I did a miserable job of making) was that whether villains are folding preflop is the least important consideration in 3bets (and least profitable)

    How villains play post flop in 3bet pots is much, much more important, followed by stack depth in determining 3 betting frequencies and ranges

    IMO

    I understand. As I get better at post flop play in 3-bet pots this will likely change for me too.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    Alright folks, as promised an article on this topic from Andrew Brokos. https://redchippoker.com/what-to-three-bet/ Part 2 will be posted in a couple of weeks. Thanks to @persuadeo for the recommendation.

    Enjoy ~ Kat
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Alright folks, as promised an article on this topic from Andrew Brokos. https://redchippoker.com/what-to-three-bet/ Part 2 will be posted in a couple of weeks. Thanks to @persuadeo for the recommendation.

    Enjoy ~ Kat

    Awesome. Thank you!!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    The second and concluding part of this mini-series on 3-betting by Andrew Brokos is now live: https://redchippoker.com/evaluating-three-bet-opportunities/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    The second and concluding part of this mini-series on 3-betting by Andrew Brokos is now live: https://redchippoker.com/evaluating-three-bet-opportunities/

    Thank you again for following up!!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,104 -
    Welcome
    Moderation In Moderation

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file