Best way to get value from a flopped straight, gutter straight flush draw

austi003austi003 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
Playing at a $1/$3 game in Blackhawk, Colorado, first time playing live poker in over a year so definitely shaking some rust off.

I got moved to this table after another table closed out, and initially I was in control of the table winning a number of nice pots, and I had a pretty aggressive image. It was a typical table with a lot of passive players wanting to see flops, and I would continually bet or 3-bet preflop and use solid postflop play, and I typically showed up with a hand if it got to showdown.

By this point though, I tried getting over aggressive to a weaker player to my right, and cost myself a big chunk of my stack trying to bluff him off a hand (this was a theme of the weekend and a definite leak in my game right now).

At this point, I'm sitting on $150 and decided it was my last hand for the night, and as a bit of a joke as the table had done some straddling earlier, I straddled for $6.

UTG + 1 raises to $18, and he was one of the more solid players at the table. On one occasion, I believe he correctly 4-bet me in a spot where I 3-bet slightly light, and couldn't continue. But based on his general play, he seemed to know what he was doing. He was sitting on $500ish

BB calls

Hero looks down at :TS::7S: and opts to call

UTG calls making the pot $73 with four players going to the flop

Dream flop of :JS::9S::8C:

BB checks, Hero Checks, UTG Checks, and UTG + 1 continues for $25

BB folds

Hero - I think for a good 30 seconds trying to decide whether to just call and continue letting UTG + 1 do the betting, or whether I should raise to try to isolate him and prevent having 2 players that could potentially improve to a better hand. After thinking, I decide to raise to $75, partially thinking this player might believe me to be betting light again, and hoping he would either call or raise me.

UTG folds

UTG + 1 thinks for 15-20 seconds and folds

Questions and thoughts
One item that I am still weak at, and struggle to do live, is to truly think through a hand and put opponents on a range. At this point (I've been playing off and on for 15 years now), I have a pretty good feel of where a player is at, but I rarely consciously think about what range my opponent is likely on.

As a result, I made this bet largely on the feel that this player was strong, but not really thinking about the range he might have and how to extract the most value from him.

I guess in my mind, I saw my hand as vulnerable with a 10 bringing a better straight, or another spade bringing a better flush. However, afterwards I realized I might have been fearing the monsters under the bed a little too much, and I could have gotten more value by calling or raising smaller if I was going to raise.

Is there ever a time I should raise here? Or is this almost always a calling situation? If I should consider raising, was my bet sizing too large or perhaps even too small if I had properly ranged him and believed he had something that could call?





Comments

  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 406 ✭✭✭
    Welcome to Red Chip Forums austi003!

    IMO, Defending your straddle with T7s was at best questionable, but your gambling with your last hand, so OK fine.

    Flopped a straight... With an SPR of 2 our goal is to get our opponents to get it all in with us with no fears of being behind our outdrawn. If we just flat the flop and no one calls behind us, that makes $123 in the pot, and we would have $107 behind. If he villain checks back the turn, then we shove the river and he folds, that would not be good at all. But if we are confident he will barrel the turn, we can certainly flat, and let him get it all in for us.

    You should get a few opinions here, but if we aren't sure he is going to barrel the turn, then I like min-raising the flop. This gives him a very good price to continue if he has anything worth continuing with.
  • Matthew FitzgeraldMatthew Fitzgerald Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    Hello, My thought process is if because of our SPR we have no fear of being behind or outdrawn we just call on the flop. We then allow one or both players behind to call as well building the pot. Which leaves us the choice to bet/shove the turn.
    Also if we just call the turn we allow the chance for someone behind to either make a play with a draw (one which could be drawing dead). Or they check raise thinking they are ahead and protecting with a weaker hand like KJ or QJ. But both the draw and the single pair are hands they fold instead when the initial raiser cbets and SB check raises all in.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also if we just call the turn we allow the chance for someone behind to either make a play with a draw (one which could be drawing dead).

    Kind of hard to imagine a draw on this board that is dead, other than maybe :6S::5S:. All :AS::KS::QS: flushes are live, there are no :JS::TS: or :9S: flush draws, no one has :8S::7S:. JJ, TT, 99, 88, J9, J8, 98 are all live, as are KQ and KT.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 777 ✭✭✭
    I would do the same thing I would do with :As:2s
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭✭
    There are much more important issues going on with this hand than how to play a flopped monster in a 2 SPR pot.
  • austi003austi003 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    I wasn't even really thinking about SPR, definitely not a concept I've engrained yet. Can you elaborate a little @Ninjah?
  • austi003austi003 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    Welcome to Red Chip Forums austi003!

    IMO, Defending your straddle with T7s was at best questionable, but your gambling with your last hand, so OK fine.

    Flopped a straight... With an SPR of 2 our goal is to get our opponents to get it all in with us with no fears of being behind our outdrawn. If we just flat the flop and no one calls behind us, that makes $123 in the pot, and we would have $107 behind. If he villain checks back the turn, then we shove the river and he folds, that would not be good at all. But if we are confident he will barrel the turn, we can certainly flat, and let him get it all in for us.

    Thanks @JoeOffsuit!

    I agree, T7s was probably a light call, and that in fairness if probably another leak I could tighten up on. I definitely was not really thinking about SPR with this hand, and given my position perhaps it was better to let him continue firing the turn and attempting to get my stack in then. If I did chose to raise, I wish I had gone with a smaller bet sizing at least. I guess in the heat of the moment, I was partially thinking back to the earlier hand and hoping he would see me as just being overly aggressive, and perhaps try to shove on me (however, that obviously isn't great thinking when I had just committed half my stack).
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    He 3-bet preflop. I expect him to continue on this flop. So definitely just call. Any why would he not continue on the turn? If you aren't drawing you would be raising the flop. So if you call the flop I see him continuing on the turn as well. Probably on the turn is where he thinks he is ahead and shoves.

    You hit that flop much too hard to be worried about someone drawing out. Especially when you have a flush draw with the :Ts which is a blocker to ATs KTs. Plus the :Js is on the board. I'm not worried. You are ahead and you are already not giving odds for (too many) hands to draw with your short stack at this point. The raise to $75 was unnecessary. You only had like $55 behind after that.

    At your present stack there is no reason for you to raise at all. Call $25 and shove the turn if anything.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭✭✭
    austi003 wrote: »
    I wasn't even really thinking about SPR, definitely not a concept I've engrained yet. Can you elaborate a little @Ninjah?

    He means the hand is basically over on the flop and there is no real poker left to be played (that's what really low SPRs mean), but that's where you put the most thought into. Probably the best explanation of these concepts is in Professional No Limit Holdem by Miller, Flynn, Mehta.

    Preflop, you were shortstacked, you basically tilted (not sure why else you would mention it was your last hand of the night), you put in 4% of your stack blind as "a joke", then 12% on a weak hand, and then after that you wanted us to start taking everything seriously :)
  • austi003austi003 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    austi003 wrote: »
    I wasn't even really thinking about SPR, definitely not a concept I've engrained yet. Can you elaborate a little @Ninjah?

    He means the hand is basically over on the flop and there is no real poker left to be played (that's what really low SPRs mean), but that's where you put the most thought into. Probably the best explanation of these concepts is in Professional No Limit Holdem by Miller, Flynn, Mehta.

    Preflop, you were shortstacked, you basically tilted (not sure why else you would mention it was your last hand of the night), you put in 4% of your stack blind as "a joke", then 12% on a weak hand, and then after that you wanted us to start taking everything seriously :)

    I wasn't on tilt, I had just hit the point in the night where I was planning to end my session so I could get up the next morning for a tournament. I only mentioned it was my last night of the hand to explain why I was even playing T7s in that situation. I understand straddling is dumb, and then defending was probably a -EV play.

    Was just trying to better learn whether I was being too concerned about getting outdrawn after that flop, and whether there was a better way to get all of the money in. Based on the comments, I would say I seriously misplayed the hand.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭✭✭
    austi003 wrote: »
    I wasn't on tilt, I had just hit the point in the night where I was planning to end my session so I could get up the next morning for a tournament. I only mentioned it was my last night of the hand to explain why I was even playing T7s in that situation. I understand straddling is dumb, and then defending was probably a -EV play.

    You basically just described tilt.

    Here is how Tommy Angelo defines it. " Tilt is any deviation from your A game, however slight or fleeting. Tilt is suboptimalness. Defining tilt in this way, everyone tilts. It's just a matter of how often, how long, and how bad."

    He also says "In order to quit well, you must be in control of yourself at the end of the session. It can be no other way."

    You might want to check out Elements of Poker.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,855 -
    Yeah tilt isn't binary, it's a continuum.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • austi003austi003 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Ok that's fair @jeffnc. I guess I was thinking of tilt in terms of steaming and spewing chips as a result, whereas I was just having a bit of fun for my last hand.

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