K high flush meets A high flush

DeucesWildDeucesWild Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
Hello All,

Looking to see if there were any leaks in my line here:

Game: 25NL (Zone e.g. ZOOM, fast-fold)
Hero: BB $24.75 :Kd :Td
Villain: CO $14.97

Villain limps, folds to hero, hero min-raises, pot is $1.25 (I thought about raising 3x or flatting, 3x seemed a bit high for me when holding K10s, didn't know if I should flat or not in this situation seeing as CO's range is wider than mine)

Flop comes: :Jd :5d :9c
Hero bets 1/2 pot, villain calls
*Not sure about my cbet here, was thinking full pot to push villain off and Jx hands, 9x hands, and even perhaps narrow it down to sets and straight draws

Turn: :3d
Hero bets pot, villain calls
*I was considering jamming since it's Zone and it's super fishy in general, but I also wanted to see if I can get value from overcards, overpairs etc. since opponents at this level in Zone are extremely sticky when holding AQ+/66+

River: :Ac
Hero bets pot, villain jams for remaining stack of $10 or so, hero calls, villain wins with :Ad :Qd
*I was thinking villain hit the Ace, and jammed since this scenario is not uncommon in Zone micros..was not expecting him to show up with AQs

Seeing as I got outplayed here, is there a spot I could have either let this hand go, or perhaps pushed villain off completely?

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 393 ✭✭✭
    Well before I saw that he showed up with AQ, I would have said the min raise is too small. I don't play much online though, to be fair. So I would have started with 3x, 4x trying to just take the pot there. Villain limping in the cutoff where you can raise wider since you'll have position if you can get the button to fold signals weakness (notwithstanding that he isn't week).

    Second. I think the 1/2 pot c-bet is fine. I don't think full pot is going to scare away any Jx holdings. I don't think many people are folding top pair in such a spot with position.

    Jamming the turn doesn't seem like the smartest play. You're only getting calls by the better flush at that point IMO unless the made his set or something. I feel like with a diamond draw on the board, players at lower limits generally raise there so as not to give a free card on a diamond draw. My two cents.

    So I think generally you would want to extract value with the second-nut flush. I'm not a terribly experienced player so take my feedback with a grain of salt. I can't think of a time where I saw someone limp AQ suited. That's the real head scratching thing for me.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't matter much for this cooler hand, but you should consider the effects of sizing on range in future. For instance, your turn pot bet not only priced out most of his ace high floats, meaning he has few to raise for thin value in the river, but that when you take polarizing lines you will not be raised light much, nor should you be.

    Min raise out of position is completley pointless. I would forget about the results of this hand and study sizing.
  • DeucesWildDeucesWild Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    It doesn't matter much for this cooler hand, but you should consider the effects of sizing on range in future. For instance, your turn pot bet not only priced out most of his ace high floats, meaning he has few to raise for thin value in the river, but that when you take polarizing lines you will not be raised light much, nor should you be.

    Min raise out of position is completley pointless. I would forget about the results of this hand and study sizing.

    Thank you as always. I have a few questions regarding your response as I'm always looking to learn. First, when you say "min raise OOP is completely pointless" I assume you are referring to my preflop raise. If you are, can I assume limping is the better option here? How does this correlate with polarized ranges, as in, if I felt K10s was at the bottom of my BB range, I should treat it the same as the top?

    As far as my bet-sizing is concerned, at first I felt that since the pot was HU, pot or 2/3 pot is standard (learned from the CORE program). However, the more I thought about it, the more I started to perceive what you said as the following: "My pot bet on the turn essentially made villain fold out all the Ace rag hands he could have, and frankly all marginal hands unless he is keeping a few semi-bluffs in his range. Furthermore he's only continuing to the river with his value hands, resulting in showing up with a cooler."

    Am I correct or close to the mark here in my takeaway?
  • DeucesWildDeucesWild Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    Thanks for the input man! I agree this was a head-scratcher when villain showed up with AQs. Also, great point on a pot bet not scaring away top pairs
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DeucesWild wrote: »
    First, when you say "min raise OOP is completely pointless" I assume you are referring to my preflop raise. If you are, can I assume limping is the better option here? How does this correlate with polarized ranges, as in, if I felt K10s was at the bottom of my BB range, I should treat it the same as the top?

    As far as my bet-sizing is concerned, at first I felt that since the pot was HU, pot or 2/3 pot is standard (learned from the CORE program). However, the more I thought about it, the more I started to perceive what you said as the following: "My pot bet on the turn essentially made villain fold out all the Ace rag hands he could have, and frankly all marginal hands unless he is keeping a few semi-bluffs in his range. Furthermore he's only continuing to the river with his value hands, resulting in showing up with a cooler."

    Am I correct or close to the mark here in my takeaway?

    Well, do one question at a time.

    1. Is limping the better option? Possibly, but you can translate my point about min raising is that it doesn't accomplish anything. Since raising the price of equity realization is mostly what a bet is, by min raising you charge the least while ceding position as there is no hand in the limping range that does not continue. You also reopen the betting, which your range may or may not want. In this case, it is undesirable, as your type of hand plays fine against almost every part of your opponent's range yet doesn't want to face a raise, especially OOP. For instance, a linear 3 betting or raising strategy will generally r/f hands like this, but fighting for the single limp is less profitable than fighting for 3 bbs, so you have some incentive to accept the price as is and interpret the limp as a mistake.

    Conversely, when you check back the bb with a middle hand like this, you accomplish something that the limper failed to do: charge you for your own realization. So the min raise OOP is always the worst play possible, being a split between the two best options: laying a serious price on the pot or accepting the price laid.

    Unfortunately, while limping is either very novice or very advanced, in this case he has chosen a hand from the select few that do limp well, by accident or design.
  • DeucesWildDeucesWild Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
    @persuadeo

    Sage advice as always. I will look to capitalize when in the BB moving forward. Looking back on this, I saw that there was only one limper, so I decided to min-raise which essentially turned my cards face-up almost..considering I didn't limp, and only put a small marginal raise out there that can get called by many hands that crush my range.
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    You mentioned that your hand was middling, so it was worth a min bet. I don't recommend dividing your preflop range up into different bet sizes according to hand strength. As Persuadeo recommends, research your preflop and postflop sizing, then you'll only need to divide hands into a single bet bucket and fold bucket (and 3 bet, flat 3 bets, 4 bet...). This keeps you from turning your hand face up.
  • DeucesWildDeucesWild Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
    @Baby_Shark

    Thanks for the input as well man, I completely agree. I'm in the CORE program currently and could not agree more with your statement regarding bet-sizing. My goal is to learn how to play balanced ranges for protection; whether it be my checking range, x/r range etc. etc. Always learning
  • Martin DMartin D Red Chipper Posts: 79 ✭✭
    If you are going to raise, raise bigger. If you set him a price of 1bb to play a hand he already paid 1bb for he's basically never folding, so why not just check?

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