Folding to a SB 4bet

itsgoldenitsgolden Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
Background
  • 1/2 hour into session
  • $2/3 home game
  • $285 eff.
  • SB- unknown, has limped and limped-called a few hands, has not shown any PF aggression
  • UTG- solid aggressive thinking player, mixes up his game
  • H- has not played any hands voluntarily in session
  • No 3 bets have happened prior to this hand, typical open raise has been about $12, ranging from $8-15

PF action
  • UTG raise to 10
  • H in CO 3bet to 35*
  • SB 4bet to 100
  • UTG folds
  • H folds

Questions
  • Thoughts?
  • What does this raise sizing
  • What is a reasonable H range to 3bet?
  • What portion of H opening range should continue?

*Not sharing hand at moment as to not bias discussion.

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭✭
    A passive villain suddenly cold 4bet OOP. What else than KK+ is he holding?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    You have to give credit to SB for a strong hand. If your labels are all correct, then SB has to recognize that your range is pretty strong. Given that it's a half hour into the game, I think that the likelihood of SB showing aggression here with little or nothing isn't too strong.

    And, if he is just bluffing, then good for him, since you're only folding hands without much equity post-flop and that likely can't withstand a lot of barreling pressure.

    As for your 3bet, I know that it sounds tight, but I'd be sticking to a pretty tight 3betting range at this spot against UTG, especially given your bet-sizing. He could call your 3bet with a significant portion of his range.

    If you wanted to open up your 3betting range, then I'd suggest a larger 3bet sizing.

    As played, I'd credit SB with a big hand and respond accordingly. Obviously, your 3bet range here (and ultimately your exact holding) at this point would help determine that response.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 393 ✭✭✭
    (Relatively new player so take with grain of salt).

    I think what you have in your hand really matters from a combos perspective, but based upon the information you have provided, I think this is either a five-bet shove or a fold.

    He's going to be acting first in each round of betting after the flop so the fact that he's not just putting all the money in now makes me think he has an extremely strong hand. QQ+, AK I think is a reasaonble 4-bet range. Based on what you provided I do not think this guy is bluffing with a 4-bet OOP.

    A reasonable three betting range in the cutoff I think should be 10s+, AJ+ and maybe KQ suited? I've been trying to be more aggressive in my three betting given that the games I'm playing in seem to be opening wider and folding to aggression. I've had a lot of recent success three betting a wider range with the knowledge that I'll walk away from $35, $40 if a get shoved on.

    If you're three betting 10s+ AJ+ and KQs, I think you're continuing there with about 50% of the range. I would probably continue QQ+, and AQs and AK off or suited. Those are my thoughts at least, again take with a grain of salt.

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 277 ✭✭✭
    As for your 3bet, I know that it sounds tight, but I'd be sticking to a pretty tight 3betting range at this spot against UTG, especially given your bet-sizing. He could call your 3bet with a significant portion of his range.

    If you wanted to open up your 3betting range, then I'd suggest a larger 3bet sizing.

    I don't know that I would give this sizing advice. In general, if I'm going to be 3-betting someone wider, I'm going to be choosing a smaller sizing.

    Let's look at this hand for example. If H 3-bets to 35 (3.5x, which I would not consider tiny) and V calls, there is 75 in the middle and 250 behind, so something like a 3.3 SPR. However, if H makes it 45 and V calls, we're looking at 95 in the middle with 240 behind, more like a 2.5 SPR, which offers less maneuverability.

    If your raises here are going to be pretty polarized, I think the larger sizing is a better choice, but if you're going to do it with a wider array of value hands, you should be choosing a smaller size. In any event, even though this is a more aggressive player I don't think hero's 3-bet range should be particularly wide against his UTG open. I personally would probably go poled, and pick something like JJ+, AK, A4s, A5s, and a handful of lower suited connectors.

    As for the cold 4-bet, from the described player type, probably only KK+, maybe AK also. Many people (even loose passive limpers) "know" that they are just supposed to raise with AK whenever action gets to them, regardless of what action has already occurred. JJ and QQ are generally just flatting here. That being said, people do strange out of the ordinary stuff that can't be explained by outside observers all the time.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    As for your 3bet, I know that it sounds tight, but I'd be sticking to a pretty tight 3betting range at this spot against UTG, especially given your bet-sizing. He could call your 3bet with a significant portion of his range.

    If you wanted to open up your 3betting range, then I'd suggest a larger 3bet sizing.

    I don't know that I would give this sizing advice. In general, if I'm going to be 3-betting someone wider, I'm going to be choosing a smaller sizing.

    Let's look at this hand for example. If H 3-bets to 35 (3.5x, which I would not consider tiny) and V calls, there is 75 in the middle and 250 behind, so something like a 3.3 SPR. However, if H makes it 45 and V calls, we're looking at 95 in the middle with 240 behind, more like a 2.5 SPR, which offers less maneuverability.

    If your raises here are going to be pretty polarized, I think the larger sizing is a better choice, but if you're going to do it with a wider array of value hands, you should be choosing a smaller size. In any event, even though this is a more aggressive player I don't think hero's 3-bet range should be particularly wide against his UTG open. I personally would probably go poled, and pick something like JJ+, AK, A4s, A5s, and a handful of lower suited connectors.

    As for the cold 4-bet, from the described player type, probably only KK+, maybe AK also. Many people (even loose passive limpers) "know" that they are just supposed to raise with AK whenever action gets to them, regardless of what action has already occurred. JJ and QQ are generally just flatting here. That being said, people do strange out of the ordinary stuff that can't be explained by outside observers all the time.

    Good point and clarification. I read OP's 3betting likelihood as more polarized than wider here.
  • itsgoldenitsgolden Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    FYI- Hero folded AQs.
    Red wrote: »
    A passive villain suddenly cold 4bet OOP. What else than KK+ is he holding?
    @Red yup, I put him on that too, maybe QQ at worse but at these limits I havent' seen opponents 4bet QQ-they seem to be more likely to 4bet AK, but w/ the blockers in hand, KK makes most sense
    You have to give credit to SB for a strong hand. If your labels are all correct, then SB has to recognize that your range is pretty strong. Given that it's a half hour into the game, I think that the likelihood of SB showing aggression here with little or nothing isn't too strong....
    As for your 3bet, I know that it sounds tight, but I'd be sticking to a pretty tight 3betting range at this spot against UTG, especially given your bet-sizing. He could call your 3bet with a significant portion of his range.
    (Relatively new player so take with grain of salt).
    A reasonable three betting range in the cutoff I think should be 10s+, AJ+ and maybe KQ suited?

    @moishetreats and @Jordan Power I'm definitely 3betting JJ+, AK, AQs, A5s in this spot (plus probably TJs- just love this hand) , 99-TT, AQ, and KQs are hands where I get lost and sometimes would 3 bet and others flat (I add in A2-A4s sometimes, don't know why yet, need to explore this), I don't really like flatting these hands too much though so I need to study these hands in different spots- those that feel very cusp-ish to me vs an EP raise.

    Roblivion wrote: »
    As for the cold 4-bet, from the described player type, probably only KK+, maybe AK also. Many people (even loose passive limpers) "know" that they are just supposed to raise with AK whenever action gets to them, regardless of what action has already occurred. JJ and QQ are generally just flatting here. That being said, people do strange out of the ordinary stuff that can't be explained by outside observers all the time.

    I put V on KK since I block AA but he can easily have AA too. AK makes sense and QQ is probably at the bottom of his range (JJ at worse but I agree that JJ calls and QQ probably too). He could be bluffing but all of his reasonable holdings beat Hero's holding.

    Thanks for the input and feedback everyone.

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