More Value

JBPoyntonJBPoynton Derby. UKRed Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
edited September 2018 in Online Poker Hands
Hi everyone.

Interested to hear if I could have got more value from this.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 21.52, PFR: 16.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 81)
Hero (BB): 87 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: 192 BB (VPIP: 24.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 55)



SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6:heart: 6:spade:

fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 3:club: 5:diamond: 8:spade:
Hero bets 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB

Turn: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 7:club:
Hero bets 5 BB, BTN calls 5 BB

River: (22.5 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets 17 BB, Hero calls 17 BB

BTN shows A:heart: K:diamond: (One Pair, Sevens)
(Pre 45%, Flop 24%, Turn 14%)
Hero shows 6:heart: 6:spade: (Two Pair, Sevens and Sixes)
(Pre 55%, Flop 76%, Turn 86%)
Hero wins 54.5 BB


Villain is reasonably tight and passive. I see a free flop and get the pair then bet half pot turn and river for value, I find people are folding often in these games.

I checked the river as I've played pairs too aggressively in the past. They bet but I don't feel the size represents trip 7's or a straight so I call.Maybe I should have shoved here.

Comments

  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 387 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Welcome to Red Chip Forums Joe!

    I am going try to answer your question with a question which is frequently done here... If you aren't 3-betting a button open raise from the BB with 66, what are you 3-betting a button open raise with from the BB?

    Also, you don't need to post results when posting a hand because we try not to be results oriented... But since you did, for an unknown opponent, I think most here would agree AKo is generally in the nose-bleed end of a buttons opening range.
  • JBPoyntonJBPoynton Derby. UKRed Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    Thanks Joe! Point taken about posting results.

    I actually had two hands open when I wrote this and got them confused which is why the first bit of my explanation doesn’t make sense. Can’t edit it for some reason.

    So preflop with this hand I think I just looked over at the red chip opening ranges infographic and called. If I think about what his range could be here Do you think he would bet larger with AA, KK? I guess he’s not folding any of his range to a 3 bet here. Equity is about 50/50 so you think that’s a straight forward 3 bet? To about 9bb?
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 387 ✭✭✭

    I believe this site allows you to edit a post for up to an hour after the initial submit, but doesn't allow changes after an hour because people have already read and replied to it. It used to be 15 minutes on this site, but after some discussion it was raised to an hour.

    I guess this the infographic you are referring to:

    https://redchippoker.com/infographic-pre-flop-ranges/

    And yes, it certainly suggests flatting a "steal attempt" with {66, 64s}, 3-betting {65s, 54s, 44}, and folding 55.

    Hmmmmm.. I have a problem with that... I actually own a copy of Ed Miller's "The Course", so I checked page 77 where he published his recommended flatting range against a button steal, and it is 88-55...

    So paging @RedChipPokerTeam, @TheGameKat, @SplitSuit... We found a discrepancy on the info-graphic against its source...

    --

    Back to your question, I think I am 3-betting all of those hands against a button steal from the BB, because I personally don't like flatting OOP heads up against steal attempts, and 3-betting tells the player we are not passive and ready to fight. But this chart is definitely giving a wide enough 3-bet range to tell the player you are a fighter.

    A button "steal" range is by definition very wide. While the charts suggest opening from the Button with about 35% of starting hands, if the blinds are playing tight and passive, a button player SHOULD be stealing with any two cards. So from the BB, we expect Button steals to be very wide unless we know the player is very tight.

    A player who "forks" his range by betting higher with AA/KK preflop, he is making himself very exploitable to anyone paying attention to his play. While its good to practice to use these range charts to prepare for tough games, I think at $.02NL (if thats 1c/2c blinds, thats usually called $2NL based on $2=100BB), there are probably a LOT of player exploits you could capitalize on to make more money than by following charts.

    I suggest 3-betting to at least 3x his total steal size, so if he raises to 3BB, re-raise to 9-12 BB
  • JBPoyntonJBPoynton Derby. UKRed Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    That’s the chart. I had it at the side of my screen for a while for reference. I’ve stopped having it there now so I roughly remember it but just as a base and then adjust according to the conditions.

    So you would 3 bet any mid range pocket pairs and suited connectors against a BTN open raise preflop? Is that just from BB/early position or in general?
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    A button "steal" range is by definition very wide. While the charts suggest opening from the Button with about 35% of starting hands, if the blinds are playing tight and passive, a button player SHOULD be stealing with any two cards. So from the BB, we expect Button steals to be very wide unless we know the player is very tight.

    Can we reliably apply this at 0.02? Can we expect players to know this? I find that around 90% of players that I come up against at this level play straight up tight passive every hand. Would it be more likely that they are simply betting the value of their their hole cards?

    Now you mention it I see people forking their open raising and 3 betting ranges quite alot. I think I have been adjusting to this naturally anyway but this reinforces it so I’ll be more aware.

    Just in the last couple of days playing aggressively has clicked with me. I’ve learned to apply pressure without worrying about losing and my win rate has increased. Now I can see more of the mistakes that straight forward tight passive players make. It’s also exposed a big leak in my own game but I’ll make a separate post about that.













  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭✭
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »

    I guess this the infographic you are referring to:

    https://redchippoker.com/infographic-pre-flop-ranges/

    And yes, it certainly suggests flatting a "steal attempt" with {66, 64s}, 3-betting {65s, 54s, 44}, and folding 55.

    Hmmmmm.. I have a problem with that... I actually own a copy of Ed Miller's "The Course", so I checked page 77 where he published his recommended flatting range against a button steal, and it is 88-55...

    Keep in mind these are free and basic charts. Also, consider that Miller's book was written about live poker. Maybe RCP will get around to updating these charts in the future.

    66 is pretty close between 3B and call. It will depend on the BTNs sizing and our assumptions about their opening range and rake(none of this is mentioned in the linked charts).

    BTN 3x from 24/20 in a high rake environment should be a 3B.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,422 -
    An additional factor with "the charts" is that the video and book versions of The Course are slightly different. In fact Ed mentions in both contexts that the details of his ranges drift with time. FWIW 66 for me in this spot is usually a flat.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 387 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    What specifically bothered me from the info-graphic was it recommended folding 55 to a steal attempt, between {44=3-bet, 55=fold, 66=flat}
    And when I went to to the source to see if that was what Miller really recommended, Miller actually recommended 55 as a flat.
    I am not saying 55 should be a 3-bet against a steal.
    I am not saying 55 should be a flat against a steal (per Miller's book.)
    I am not saying 55 should be a fold against a steal (per the info-graphic that uses Miller's book as it's source.)
    I am just saying there is a discrepancy between the info-graphic, and the reference it is sourced from for what to do with 55 against the steal... And being the hopeless OCD I am, I just can't seem to keep quiet and not say anything when I find something like that... :-/ I really appreciate everything you guys do for the forum community, and sorry to be the OCD guy!

    But that aside, the point I was trying to make to the OP who was looking to get more value at $2NL, was that learning our opponents exploits and developing a specific strategy against those exploits I believe would be a lot more profitable than making a play based from a table for unknown opponents. And once he knows the opponents exploits, to use that as a guiding strategy.

  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    I like flatting 66 here. I don't hate 3betting it either. I like to call wide from BB, and I 3-bet merged from the BB against most villains, but not down to 66. Because I can play speculative holdings more "fit or fold" due to the pot odds of being BB, I'm usually 3-betting for value. 66 also makes a nice check-call hand on a lot of boards, like this one, which protects a lot of the speculative holdings I'm flatting from BB and folding on a lot of boards.

    How about the flop? Does hero need a donking range here? Feels like we're betting for information, which basically goes like this:

    "Your hand was good! Congratulations for not letting your opponent bluff."
    or
    "Your hand wasn't good! Congratulations for valuebetting for your opponent."
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,422 -
    The lead has some protection benefit, but in general donk ranges puzzle me.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • JBPoyntonJBPoynton Derby. UKRed Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Ok so I understand about ranges, although I haven’t got as far as creating my own ranges for different positions and actions. So, donk ranges? Do I need one? Why would I not need one given that we generate ranges for other situations?
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    JBPoynton wrote: »
    Ok so I understand about ranges, although I haven’t got as far as creating my own ranges for different positions and actions. So, donk ranges? Do I need one? Why would I not need one given that we generate ranges for other situations?

    Range refers to all the hands you could potentially hold in a given situation. On this flop when you are out of position, you can donkbet or check. Here you have to think about it this way: to I ever want to bet into the pre flop raiser? I don't think so. On this board with my BB calling range, I check 100% of my range against most villains
  • JBPoyntonJBPoynton Derby. UKRed Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    Got it. So would a better line have been to 3 bet preflop then check the flop or just check both, let villain lead and continue based on the odds he’s giving me with any raises?

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