Review this hand please

Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
edited September 2018 in Live Poker Hands
Would like feedback on this hand please.
A little backstory this was a hand played live during an 85 dollar buy in mtt.
I was cheaper leader and felt I had a solid edge on most the opponents at the table I was picking good spots to 3 bet bluff and check raise bluff as well as for value. Then this hand happened

Blinds were 50/100 and we were 9 handed and still early in the tourney.

I'm on the button with 13k
Utg limps as do 3 others
Action is on me I look down at :5d :7d and just call
Big blinds checks his option
Pot=650

Flop comes :4s :4c :3d
It checks to me and I bet 425
BB calls everyone else folds. BB has about 10k to start the hand
Pot is now 1500

Turn is a :8h
BB checks I double barrel for 850
BB calls
Pot is now 3350

River is :6h
Villain bets 2500
I raise to 5k
Villain shoves
I call.
Tagged:

Comments

  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    Before I post results I will explain my thoughts
    The biggest mistake I think I made here was not raising preflop to something like 1200 maybe 1500.
    But I called cause I felt I had a decent edge post flop most opponents at the table folded way to much somewhere around 60 percent and the only other good player at the table folded pre.
    Main villain in the hand would call post flop and fold turn.
    And Ithought that the flop hit my button calLing range pretty decent.
    Any input would be great and then I will post what villain had
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    I prefer overcalling pre than your alternate line of making a huge iso raise.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    I think pre is fine.

    On flop, bluffing into a 6 way limped pot is rarely ever a good idea.

    Turn is wild aggression with very little chance of help coming on the riv.

    Villain you are describing as passive, so when he leads river he has the relative goods. He started with likely all but 12% of the deck. 44, 43, 33, 88, 84, 64.
    25 combos there. I suppose it’s possible he leads 4x, but not likely enough that I want to raise.
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    Anyone????

    Well it is Saturday night. Many (not me) are putting that to better use.

  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    @ Paul and Kat.
    Can u expand on why calling pre is better than iso raise.
    And Paul my thought was I also could have all those hands in my calling range as well that's why I decided to bluff villain but it seems like check folding was a better line than trying to bluff on that kind of board. After the 6h came my only thought was get my stack in I didn't really think it thru.

    And true about Saturday night
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I like overlimping here too. Your hand plays great with position against many players and a high stack to pot ratio. If hero is raising all hands better than 75s here, our frequencies will be way maniac. This compounds the problem of bluffing into 4 limpers with the blinds left behind us: our total fold equity is low, and this is the kind of hand that has to benefit from fold equity if it is going to be used as a raise. If our image is maniac, or even if our image is "skilled player that can take down a pot", we will successfully pick this pot up with folds preflop at a very low rate.

    This also bears upon the argument against firing flop. Even after 5 players check to you, these checks could disguise all manner of 4x or better hands (I don't know your player pool, but I imagine they are capable of this)

    As played, how about betting small on the turn? If villain folds: hooray! If villain raises, you aren't folding a lot of equity (you might even be dead). If villain calls, you can bomb any blank river to get a fold: villain caps his range severely when he fails to raise a small turn bet from you, so blow him out of the pot with your 7-high on the river.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    @ Paul and Kat.
    Can u expand on why calling pre is better than iso raise.
    And Paul my thought was I also could have all those hands in my calling range as well that's why I decided to bluff villain but it seems like check folding was a better line than trying to bluff on that kind of board. After the 6h came my only thought was get my stack in I didn't really think it thru.

    And true about Saturday night

    If I'm at a table where four people in front of me think it's perfectly reasonable to limp, I'm not optimistic I'm going to find the right raise size to iso and get heads-up. So if I raise and get multiple callers all I've really accomplished is crushing the SPR when holding a hand that likes a high SPR. More generally, early in tournaments I take fairly passive lines. That may come down to a matter of style.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    Baby_Shark wrote: »
    As played, how about betting small on the turn? If villain folds: hooray! If villain raises, you aren't folding a lot of equity (you might even be dead). If villain calls, you can bomb any blank river to get a fold: villain caps his range severely when he fails to raise a small turn bet from you, so blow him out of the pot with your 7-high on the river.

    I like that kind of creativity much more in a cash game.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    @ Paul and Kat.
    Can u expand on why calling pre is better than iso raise.

    @TheGameKat answered this well.

    When you make a huge iso, think about how you're setting yourself up post. You have at least half the table to try to fold out, and that's fairly unlikely in a low buy-in, fast structured tourney (the limpers stack sizes are important info). Also consider that when called pre, this hand will almost surely be far behind in pure value and equity, forcing you to either improve or bluff again with a shrunken SPR. Overcard flops are coming in the vast majority. You'll hit TP+ only 8% of the time. You'll hit your OESD + flush draws twice as often, but you want a high SPR to see these through to the river. You block zero of the higher flushes, which could come back to punch you in the gut if the flush comes in.

    And if you really think your opponents are putting you on a range (debatable), and they've seen you very active, what would they range you with on a 15x raise?

    You have a deep stack, and a sneaky hand that can do some damage, or let you make a clean getaway when you whiff. Go ahead and see some cheap flops early in a tourney. Save the bludgeoning for later, when the field shrinks and players begin to fear busting out.

    Also, beware when the passive player you tagged as "calls flop/folds turn", continues past the turn. Your nut straight is nowhere near the nuts.

    Would welcome any alternative thoughts to this.
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the input guys. So my preflop call was fine. I'm just being results oriented and so I thought raising preflop was better.
    If the hand would have played check on the flop.
    hero bet small on turn and villain calls. Would any of you raise villains river bet or just call. My gut told me to just call his river bet but I got greedy lol.
    I have this leak in my game where I try to find a way to win every hand im in and I get results oriented when I need to learn you cant win them all and sometimes a win is getting out with losing the minimum lol.
    And thanks again for the advice guys I feel my game is improving the more time I spend on this forum.


  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who exactly were you thinking of isolating and how much do you think this would cost to accomplish? It's hard to know if you're being results oriented because you know the result and we don't. In my experience after you showed so much strength in the hand that when a weaker player donk bets on the river he's either running a weird bluff or more often he was simply slow playing. It's hard to know what he thinks is a strong hand because he could have been slowplaying a 4, thinking that you simply had an overpair the entire time (which is a little hard to believe since you didn't raise preflop) or since you limped preflop then he assumed you had the 4 yourself and he hit a full house. Normally this is just a call for me on the donk bet.
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    Villain showed
    :4d :4h
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Who exactly were you thinking of isolating and how much do you think this would cost to accomplish? It's hard to know if you're being results oriented because you know the result and we don't. In my experience after you showed so much strength in the hand that when a weaker player donk bets on the river he's either running a weird bluff or more often he was simply slow playing. It's hard to know what he thinks is a strong hand because he could have been slowplaying a 4, thinking that you simply had an overpair the entire time (which is a little hard to believe since you didn't raise preflop) or since you limped preflop then he assumed you had the 4 yourself and he hit a full house. Normally this is just a call for me on the donk bet.

    And after the hand I was tellijng myself had i raised pre villain folds the hand shown and I can represent a big over pair on the flop to get any callers to fold.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Classic slowplay. Unlikely he is folding preflop. People love setmining. Especially slowplayers :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭

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