Shove or flat

Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
edited October 5 in Tournament Poker Hands
Ok so here is another hand
$35 dollar tourney 11 players remain and my table is 6 handed payouts don't start till 3rd place

Blinds are 400/800
Average stack is around 15-20k
Hero is utg+1 with 13k

Utg raises to 2k he has 10k to start
Hero looks down at :Jc :Ac
What do you guys do in this situation call or shove.
I will post my decision after your thoughts
Side info UTG fold frequency to a 3 bet has been about 50 ish percent
And all other players have been pretty tight.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,086 -
    edited October 5
    Your characterization of the players suggests a shove, but I'm a bit wary of thinking there's a good likelihood an UTG/LJ player will raise-fold 20% of their stack.

    The decision is between shoving and folding IMO, I don't see flatting as feasible.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Your characterization of the players suggests a shove, but I'm a bit wary of thinking there's a good likelihood an UTG/LJ player will raise-fold 20% of their stack.

    The decision is between shoving and folding IMO, I don't see flatting as feasible.

    Well I did decide to shove.
    The reason I debated just flatting was because I had played quite a few hands with villain post flop and he was extremely weak post flop he would always fold post flop if he didn't hit the flop I know this because he would show his cards when he would fold and I had taken about 8k in chips from him playing with him post flop. So i was thinking in the moment if I flat here and he misses he will check and I can scoop the pot with a c bet of about half pot almost regardless of what cards I hold.
  • MistaCrowleyMistaCrowley Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited October 5
    I haven't studied a lot of tournament poker, however it is an area I've had a lot of success in personally. I personally would flat from an early position not only because of the action behind you, buyt also because you do not have a made hand. you have a strong hand, but your opponent has indicated they do as well. Flat call gather more information on the flop win the pot or lose the least. For me tournament poker isnt about how many chips you win, but how many you protect and how few mistakes you make, and with all the action behind you and the situation you are in, you are subjecting your entire tournament to hopes and dreams with an AJs with way too many unknowns out there. The all in move is something in that position you would only want to consider with <5BB.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,086 -
    I haven't studied a lot of tournament poker, however it is an area I've had a lot of success in personally. I personally would flat from an early position not only because of the action behind you, buyt also because you do not have a made hand. you have a strong hand, but your opponent has indicated they do as well. Flat call gather more information on the flop win the pot or lose the least. For me tournament poker isnt about how many chips you win, but how many you protect and how few mistakes you make, and with all the action behind you and the situation you are in, you are subjecting your entire tournament to hopes and dreams with an AJs with way too many unknowns out there. The all in move is something in that position you would only want to consider with <5BB.

    If you move all-in over the open with <5bb you know you're getting called. It's true chip preservation is critical in tournaments, but that applies to your opponents too. This is part of what makes the all-in move so powerful and necessary in the later stages of tournaments.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I haven't studied a lot of tournament poker, however it is an area I've had a lot of success in personally. I personally would flat from an early position not only because of the action behind you, buyt also because you do not have a made hand. you have a strong hand, but your opponent has indicated they do as well. Flat call gather more information on the flop win the pot or lose the least. For me tournament poker isnt about how many chips you win, but how many you protect and how few mistakes you make, and with all the action behind you and the situation you are in, you are subjecting your entire tournament to hopes and dreams with an AJs with way too many unknowns out there. The all in move is something in that position you would only want to consider with <5BB.

    If you move all-in over the open with <5bb you know you're getting called. It's true chip preservation is critical in tournaments, but that applies to your opponents too. This is part of what makes the all-in move so powerful and necessary in the later stages of tournaments.

    I also agree with this most of my success in tournaments come from the late stages and making players decide for their whole stack.
    However @Gamekat is can we ever flat here for the reasons I mentioned above
  • MnpokerMnpoker Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    Gamekat is right, this is a never flat spot. Given the info provided and your stack size and position at a 6 handed table the A J is a clear shove
  • MnpokerMnpoker Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    Misty with the exception of just loosing a hand you should never allow yourself to get under 5 BB and AJ is a shove with a stack much larger then 5 BB. This is a small tournament if it paying 3 then there were roughly 30 runners so roughly 33% are still in play. In tournaments in most cases AJ suited is a shove at 15BB and below some would even argue 20BB
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    Well I did end up shoving
    Villain shows
    :Ad :Qh
    I was just curious if we could ever flat against weaker p,ayers and try to take it away post. Thanks for the input.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,086 -
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I haven't studied a lot of tournament poker, however it is an area I've had a lot of success in personally. I personally would flat from an early position not only because of the action behind you, buyt also because you do not have a made hand. you have a strong hand, but your opponent has indicated they do as well. Flat call gather more information on the flop win the pot or lose the least. For me tournament poker isnt about how many chips you win, but how many you protect and how few mistakes you make, and with all the action behind you and the situation you are in, you are subjecting your entire tournament to hopes and dreams with an AJs with way too many unknowns out there. The all in move is something in that position you would only want to consider with <5BB.

    If you move all-in over the open with <5bb you know you're getting called. It's true chip preservation is critical in tournaments, but that applies to your opponents too. This is part of what makes the all-in move so powerful and necessary in the later stages of tournaments.

    I also agree with this most of my success in tournaments come from the late stages and making players decide for their whole stack.
    However @Gamekat is can we ever flat here for the reasons I mentioned above

    I guess against sufficiently bad and predictable opponents we can take a lot of non-standard lines. One problem with flatting here, however, is we encourage a squeeze behind.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    [/quote] One problem with flatting here, however, is we encourage a squeeze behind.[/quote]

    So can we ever min 3bet here to iso.
  • SqwuakboxSqwuakbox Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    Fold for me, with the rare shove in this spot, close spot, I dont believe villain is folding here pretty much ever.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,086 -
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    One problem with flatting here, however, is we encourage a squeeze behind.[/quote]

    So can we ever min 3bet here to iso.[/quote]

    There's a funny thing about isolating in very low SPR situations in that it basically eliminates the standard positional advantage. If you min 3bet and the OR calls, for example, if they're any good they'll shove most flops.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    One problem with flatting here, however, is we encourage a squeeze behind.

    So can we ever min 3bet here to iso.[/quote]

    There's a funny thing about isolating in very low SPR situations in that it basically eliminates the standard positional advantage. If you min 3bet and the OR calls, for example, if they're any good they'll shove most flops.[/quote]

    Makes sense thanks for your input I don't think the shove I made was a bad play just wondering about other lines.

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