9 7 off facing a re-raise on the flop

Absolute_DisgraceAbsolute_Disgrace Brisbane, AustraliaRed Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
I had an interesting hand last weekend that I would love to get feedback on. I had a lot of logic behind my choices but I wanted feedback on my lines and assumptions.

Game $2/$5 (AUD) at a local casino. This casino only offers $2/$5 or $5/$5, if that matters.

10 Player Game
Me: In BB with $545
Villain in Mp2 with $460


Villain was a young ABC poker player. Played with him for an hour or so. Never saw him limp or get out of line. He really seemed to play ‘by the book’. For players like this I assume the default of A10+, some double royals, and pairs in most positions until I see otherwise.

Villain raises to $20, which was a standard open for this table. It folded around to me in the big blind with :9D: :7C: . Given villains straightforward playstyle, I felt 9/7 hits the boards that he won’t. I felt confident enough in my playstyle to make a call and assess the flop. I felt a fold would be too nitty as I’m closing the action and only need to pay $15. I felt a raise was a worse idea as this hand can play well post flop.

Flop: :9S: :6C: :3H:

I check and villain bets for $40.

Given this board texture and the nearly pot sized bet, I felt that villain was not in love with his hand. Given his playstyle I can’t imagine he has hit this flop. Its possible he is overplaying an over pair so I felt my only option was to raise, as calling would create unnecessary reverse implied odds due (called raised tells me many things). I also thought that given my hands middling strength, there wasn’t many turn/river cards that I would love, so a raise could just end it now. Folding was never an option because if I was going to fold top pair then I shouldn’t have called the preflop raise.

I raise to $120.

Villain then re-raises to $295.

At this point I tank a little bit to figure out what to do. That’s a scary move so I’d love to just fold, but Poker is a game about thinking right? Going back to the range I put Villain on. If he had QQ+ or a set, would he raise? I concluded that no, he would call 100% and let me bet later streets. Besides he has position, if I check he can always bet again. If he had 10s or JJ, would he freak out and shove? Maybe? Its possible? What about 88 or lower, Ax that missed or some 9/X hands? Could he be trying to push me off the pot? This felt very likely. A re-raise like this feels like a “please fold” bet.

I concluded that A/9 or K/9 is possible but a lot less likely. My range estimate could have been off, given the small sample size of his hands, and that yes he could be freaking out with 10s and JJs. If I consider that worst case scenario,
there were many more combinations of missed or vulnerable hands that he is now bluff raising with.

Due to stack size behind, Villain is never folding if I shove. I can’t bluff him off if he has a better hand, but I felt that villains range must be capped given his initial bet size and the re-raise. Even if I’m wrong this time, I felt I was ahead far more often that I’m behind.

I go ALL-IN

Villain Calls

Villain reveals pockets 8s


Turn is :QS:
River is :3D:

I win the pot.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    edited October 2018
    Was this a question? It is best to not post the results immediately and to ask specific questions.

    Tough love time: I don't like how either of you played the hand. The dealer has to award the pot to someone at the end it happened to be you.

    Pre-Flop:

    Just fold.

    Don't trust me, ask Google. I could not find any Button defense chart that advocates your play. Here is one from our own Ed Miller:

    https://redchippoker.com/infographic-pre-flop-ranges/

    97o is not on there.

    On the flop:

    I am concerned about some of the things you were saying. You are throwing out terms and not using them correctly.

    but I felt that villains range must be capped given his initial bet size and the re-raise. Even if I’m wrong this time, I felt I was ahead far more often that I’m behind.

    At every opportunity, this Villain bet or raised. That is not something that tends to "cap his range."

    Sideboard to define capping a range: A typical way that people cap their range is flat-calling or checking on a dangerous board. Most players with sets on dangerous boards will bet or raise. The lack of aggression implies the player does not hold these strong but vulnerable hands. When a player "can not hold" these strong hands, it means their range is capped at something smaller than that.

    So, does this player have a capped range?

    Let's see:

    Could he have the nuts? 99. Yes
    Second nuts? 66. Yes
    Third? 33. Yes

    Skipping all the weird two pair, the next highest possible hands are the pairs
    AA-TT.

    The best possible combos (skipping the illogical two pair hands) are:
    99
    66
    33
    AA
    KK
    QQ
    JJ
    TT

    These are all explicitly in his range by your own estimate:

    For players like this I assume the default of A10+, some double royals, and pairs in most positions until I see otherwise.

    Given the constant aggression and your own estimate of his range, his range is anything but capped.

    When I read this, it felt like you were lost and decided aggression was the way out. I think you are very lucky to have found someone that decided to stick it in with an underpair for some odd reason. I would question his play also.

    Do you think you would be posting this hand had he showed up with any of these other hands that have your crushed?

    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Absolute_DisgraceAbsolute_Disgrace Brisbane, AustraliaRed Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    Thanks for taking the time to reply. James Sweeney suggested i come to this forum and post this here. He said he thought it would spark a great conversation. so i created an account and did just that.

    My main focus for such a post is to get feedback from others on the individual assumptions and reasoning behind the decisions that i made in this pot. Its not a particularly common scenario.

    I completely accept that 9/7o isn't in a standard call range and i'm certainly not advocating for it. By posting the type of villain and my thoughts on his range i wanted to open up to scrutiny the reason I provided for going outside the norm (Big blind, closing action to MP, calling 3bb). Is this a case of "don't do this ever, 9/7 is a 100% fold" or is it a case of "good idea, but such logic would be better suited x y type hands because you get z"?
    At every opportunity, this Villain bet or raised. That is not something that tends to "cap his range."

    The point that i was making was that when the villain bet, he made it a nearly Pot sized bet, on a low dry board, instead of a more standard half or three quarter pot bet. Normally such a large bet is done to protect equity, but on such a board what are you protecting?

    After raising him, villains decision to re-raise again, rather than simply call or shove, felt to me like another "i want you to fold now" move. Both actions didn't indicate to me that the Villain had flopped a monster. So out of the range of hands he brought to the flop, i felt that there was a cap on the strength of the hands he might have in taking those specific 2 sets of actions in combination. I apologise if the term Capped Range doesn't apply there, i'd love to know the more appropriate term?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    edited October 2018
    I completely accept that 9/7o isn't in a standard call range and i'm certainly not advocating for it. By posting the type of villain and my thoughts on his range i wanted to open up to scrutiny the reason I provided for going outside the norm (Big blind, closing action to MP, calling 3bb). Is this a case of "don't do this ever, 9/7 is a 100% fold" or is it a case of "good idea, but such logic would be better suited x y type hands because you get z"?

    You are trying to make an exception for this hand because you are "closing the action", "in the BB", and "is is a 4x open" All the advice that tells you not to defend this hand is based on exactly those factors already.

    The point that i was making was that when the villain bet, he made it a nearly Pot sized bet, on a low dry board, instead of a more standard half or three quarter pot bet. Normally such a large bet is done to protect equity, but on such a board what are you protecting?

    Or people make bad bet sizes.

    You are putting an incredible amount of faith into some very dubious logic. If you are wrong, you are stuffing it in very dead. I find this Villain's play to be completely consistent with big overpairs and sets. TBH, I am more surprised to see this underpair than I would be to see something that crushes you.
    After raising him, villains decision to re-raise again, rather than simply call or shove, felt to me like another "i want you to fold now" move. Both actions didn't indicate to me that the Villain had flopped a monster. So out of the range of hands he brought to the flop, i felt that there was a cap on the strength of the hands he might have in taking those specific 2 sets of actions in combination. I apologise if the term Capped Range doesn't apply there, i'd love to know the more appropriate term?

    With more explanation, you are correct given your assumptions and logic: this would be a capped range. I disagree with your logic and the meaning of the Villain's bets though so I think this was just spewy on both sides.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,269 -
    The terminology is fine, I think the critical issue is how confident one can be that a nearly pot bet represents a capped range.

    You mention in your write-up your range might have been off because you only have a small number of hands, so presumably you're using a population-based read that where you play this bet size reliably means something. Obviously you're a lot better placed to make that assessment than anyone else.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't represent a capped range, it represents a polarized range on the flop, where it by necessity has more bluffs. (Whether he bets zero, one blind, or all in, he has all over pairs and all sets, the very definition of being uncapped. Hero, on the other hand, has not flopped any hands better than this, has maybe zero natural two pairs, lacks more than 8 strong draws and has fewer overpairs)

    This is what allows 97o more continuance, not capped/uncapped.

    On the other shoe, villain overplays the merged part of his range here, meaning he is in fact the opposite of an abc player, and likely completely improvising his game. Even if you stand by the line 97 takes here, this is not really disputable when 88 shows down this way, and so hero needs to question his reads.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    me in the big blind with :9D: :7C: . Given villains straightforward playstyle, I felt 9/7 hits the boards that he won’t

    Not exactly. If you hit, then he probably didn't. But that's not the same thing. Lots of boards hit neither of you, and he's virtually always ahead when that happens.

    And also, you can "hit" (as in the actual hand) and still be behind many pairs in his range.
    I’m closing the action and only need to pay $15. I felt a raise was a worse idea as this hand can play well post flop.

    You're last to act on one street out of four. And are you talking about $15 in absolute terms? That's an odd thing to do in poker, so if you're talking about pot odds instead of absolute dollars, then you're looking at something close to 1:1 (much worse than 2:1 anyway, 1.3:1 depending on rake/tips) which is not attractive.
    Folding was never an option because if I was going to fold top pair then I shouldn’t have called the preflop raise.

    That may or may not be true, but in any case it more supports the option of folding preflop rather than not folding now.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Villain then re-raises to $295.
    Wtf is going on. I mean I get that V felt kinda lost with 2nd pair, but like if your answer is "fk it, when it doubt, FE is real!"....His hand is the worst bluff candidate ever. He blocks 98. He loses to your sets. He loses to you freaking out with JJ or 10's. Like...he has literally not equity except fold equity.

    If your gonna freak out, why not do it with AK or AQ with BD's?

    Also...fold preflop.


    This is a great example of bet sizing tells. To ME though, I woulda folded, because this sizing to me screams 10's, JJ, or 88. If I we V with an overpair, I would even size down to 40-55%, as I will have sooo many bricked overcards, and except for 99, I really don't hold any really strong holdings on this board.

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