NL10z: 5betting deep, size?, range?

Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
edited October 6 in Online Poker Hands
villain is a reg, solid 23/18, active stealer, active 3better, 4bets light.

i noticed that i never had this before. being 230bb deep and facing a 4bet when i hold a premium.
questions:

- what is a reasonable 5betting size? (i assume i have a 5bet here and not just a shove)
- if i have a value 5bet, i need bluffs too, right? or is this such a rare situation that i dont need to worry about balancing? or do i just add a suited baby ace or KQo to my range and im good?
- what would i do with KK here. still 5bet/c? feels wrong somehow.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 Spieler) - PokerStars Zoom Converter Tool from http://de.flopturnriver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ($23.20)
SB ($15.10)
Hero (BB) ($38.12)
UTG ($43.77)
MP ($24.30)
CO ($10)

Preflop: Hero ist BB mit Aspade.gif, Adiamond.gif
3 folds, Button raises to $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.95, Button raises to $2.60, Hero raises to $5.90, 1 fold

Gesamt Pot: $5.25 | Rake: $0

Ergebnisse :
Hero didn't show Aspade.gif, Adiamond.gif.

Comments

  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You answered your own questions. You felt you had no real 5 bet range, and that is likely true.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 237 ✭✭
    I think the best play here is to 5b shove AA and to call the 4bet with KK. You dont need bluffs at 10NL in these kind of spots. You can mix in some AX as bluffs
  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You answered your own questions. You felt you had no real 5 bet range, and that is likely true.
    so i dont even 5bet AA here?
    i assume not having a 5bet range isnt always true as it changes with stack depth? if so, is there a stack depth X where we start having a 5bet range?

    also, given the pot odds, doesnt my opponent have to call here with his entire 4bet range, IF that range would be reasonable? in other words: the fact that he folds, shows me, his hand wasnt reasonable?

    and if i dont have a 5bet range, doesnt that mean, that my opponent can 4bet me much much wider?

    it feels like the entire 4betting concept here is different from 100BB effective
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭
    5-bets without ultra premium prob doesn't begin until 350+ BB's. It just doesn't make sense, unless your Vanessa Selbt.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 237 ✭✭
    Michael W wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You answered your own questions. You felt you had no real 5 bet range, and that is likely true.
    so i dont even 5bet AA here?
    i assume not having a 5bet range isnt always true as it changes with stack depth? if so, is there a stack depth X where we start having a 5bet range?

    also, given the pot odds, doesnt my opponent have to call here with his entire 4bet range, IF that range would be reasonable? in other words: the fact that he folds, shows me, his hand wasnt reasonable?

    and if i dont have a 5bet range, doesnt that mean, that my opponent can 4bet me much much wider?

    it feels like the entire 4betting concept here is different from 100BB effective

    I think the fact that he folds shows you that 99% of players dont have a 5b bluffing range
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michael W wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You answered your own questions. You felt you had no real 5 bet range, and that is likely true.
    so i dont even 5bet AA here?
    i assume not having a 5bet range isnt always true as it changes with stack depth? if so, is there a stack depth X where we start having a 5bet range?

    also, given the pot odds, doesnt my opponent have to call here with his entire 4bet range, IF that range would be reasonable? in other words: the fact that he folds, shows me, his hand wasnt reasonable?

    and if i dont have a 5bet range, doesnt that mean, that my opponent can 4bet me much much wider?

    it feels like the entire 4betting concept here is different from 100BB effective

    Great questions that indicate you will go far.

    The first and main problem is, with each raise, more and more combinations are falling away from both your ranges. You will want to play postflop at some point, as you will have hands in your range that do not want to constantly repolarize and burn up significant EV by turning them into bluffs. In other words, flatting aces or even omitting a five bet strategy against his four bet can protect your overall strategy.

    Second, pot odds are not the end-all of a poker situation. By five betting him, he can't really enter postflop play because the SPR you have created will not benefit him, even if the price seems favorable - similar to all sort of other poker situations, such as the illusory profitability of completing the small blind, and so many other spots. NLHE is often about stacks, not the immediate street.

    Third, about his range. He is incentivized to have a very light 4 bet range here composed of K and A blockers. By five betting him, you let this range raise/fold too easily when you could cool him off or induce by seeing the next street.

    This doesn't mean you can't have a five bet range - poker is complex, thankfully. It is just that you have to address the first problem, at minimum, that I listed above.
  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Great questions that indicate you will go far.

    The first and main problem is, with each raise, more and more combinations are falling away from both your ranges. You will want to play postflop at some point, as you will have hands in your range that do not want to constantly repolarize and burn up significant EV by turning them into bluffs. In other words, flatting aces or even omitting a five bet strategy against his four bet can protect your overall strategy.

    Second, pot odds are not the end-all of a poker situation. By five betting him, he can't really enter postflop play because the SPR you have created will not benefit him, even if the price seems favorable - similar to all sort of other poker situations, such as the illusory profitability of completing the small blind, and so many other spots. NLHE is often about stacks, not the immediate street.

    Third, about his range. He is incentivized to have a very light 4 bet range here composed of K and A blockers. By five betting him, you let this range raise/fold too easily when you could cool him off or induce by seeing the next street.

    This doesn't mean you can't have a five bet range - poker is complex, thankfully. It is just that you have to address the first problem, at minimum, that I listed above.

    alright, so the higher the n in the preflop n-betting, the narrower the ranges up to the point where it can only be AA. and when im 100% depolarized i can not earn money because polarisation is key in poker (unless we play against fish). and as stacks get deeper, the value of speculative hands go up. but when i want to call 4bets with speculative hands, i need to protect that range, so i flat premiums here as well.

    which means, that the range advantage of the 4better is gone now. in 100 BB play you dont flat a 4bet with premiums (i see players do that every day, but it doesnt make sense to me at all).
    if that range advantage is gone, that should mean, that the 4bet range of my opponent should be more depolarized, no? i mean why would he 4bet A5s when he could just flat my 3bet in position and play a fantastic deepstack-hand.
    going further: if his 4bet range depolarizes, he should stop 4betting at all at some point.
    and as we (or the oop player in general) should 3bet much less light oop when deep, it looks like that deep stacks create a trend to single raised pots.
    i believe that at some point (stack depth of 500? 700? 1k BB?) that trend goes in the opposite direction again?

    well, if my thoughts are correct, how the heck does that affect my SB defending strategy? my default is either 3bet or fold (although on nl10 there are opportunities to flat steals in the sb).
    so when we 3bet or fold in the sb, but can not polarize our 3betting range and we can also not have a wide value range because the value of broadway combos goes down deep and we are oop, are we actually forced to be nits in the sb now?

    also if deep stacks set a trend to single raised pots, it should then create a trend towards multiway pots. but if thats true, why the heck would i want to open raise AJo from utg now? will now a lot of those broadways be removed from my open raising range and i better add more suited connectors. well ok, that is when (almost) the whole table is deep.

    regarding BB defending ranges when deep. a hand like K7s often times can be found in the light part of the 3betting range. deep it is now where? folding range (due to rio) or flatting range (cuz if we´d fold those hands, we dont reach our minimum df)? you can make a point for both.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, that is a whole menu of concerns.

    I'll try to keep this short. Your reaction is logical, but too black and white. You can always reintroduce an n-betting range to counter his reaction.

    Nor do you have to give up on your 5-bets just because you flat some premiums against him. A mixed strategy has always been the nuts.
  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Well, that is a whole menu of concerns.

    I'll try to keep this short. Your reaction is logical, but too black and white. You can always reintroduce an n-betting range to counter his reaction.

    Nor do you have to give up on your 5-bets just because you flat some premiums against him. A mixed strategy has always been the nuts.

    alright. can you give a few final words regarding SB strat when deep, pls?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, rather than blather too much, I would just say that I like how you think deeply through the implications of things - i would mostly urge you to continue down that path more than look for tidbits from others. Use that to answer the concerns both of us raised - in my opinion, you will have to find a balance between the need to play post flop, suggesting a linear aspect to your SB 3b range, and the great disadvantage of position, which you currently solve through polarization. Sizing, following this logic, may become very important to you.

    I would also point out that 230 bbs is fairly deep for many online games, but for Zoom and in other scenarios, isn't even where many of consider where depth really begins. GL.

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