Turn bet leak?

Adam KeenanAdam Keenan Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Live Poker Hands
2-2 Copenhagen Casino

Hero - c/o stack 850 - just stacked 3 players. Table captain. About to wrap up 3 hour session.
V1 - utg+1 - 250stack 40s American on holiday. Weak player
V2 - button - 350 stack - late 30s local, seems to be v tight. Only 2 memorable hands - 3 bet huge, then seperately checked down pocket Kings because ace on board

Hero :As :9s

Preflop
Straddle 4, v1 calls straddle, hero raises to 23, v2 calls, v1 calls
Bet size above average means I have their ranges as 8s+, AK, AQ, AJ, KQs (unlikely 89-QJ)

Pot 77

Flop
:Ah :6s :TC:
V1 checks
Hero checks (v1 has checked big aces earlier)
V2 checks
Pot 77

Turn
:Qs
V1 check
Hero bet 30 (weasels multiway bet recommendation)
V2 raises to 105 (122 remaining)
Pot 212 / 75 to call
V1 folds
Hero folds. Don't see cards.

Thoughts
V2 - felt like qq or aq.
Hero - only a flush to win giving 8 outs taking out 10s for a boat if he has QQ, so approx 16%. Hit and I stack him.

questions
1. Should I have bet flop? Preflop bet was above average so felt ranges were narrow and worried 9 would be weak
2. As played stabbed at this pot? Feel like a check call would be better play
3. Agree fold is the right play?

Reading back through this feels like mistakes all over the place. But was a great session 210 finishing on 840 thanks to the red chippers

Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I'll let others start dissecting the hand itself. I don't see that the big leak is on the turn. Here's where I see the big leak:
    Hero - c/o stack 850 - just stacked 3 players. Table captain. About to wrap up 3 hour session.

    I think that this reality affected your play significantly. I'd suggest trying to imagine this NOT to be the case as an exercise and then ask yourself and answer: How would I have played this hand differently?

    (In fact, feel free to try that and post it before you read the rest of the replies!)
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    I would say it’s wildly inaccurate to assign the same range to both players.

    It’s one thing to do it in game, when pressure is on. But creating separate ranges in your off table analysis is critical to improving this skill on the felt.

    So, echoing @moishetreats, maybe start fresh with this one.
  • Adam KeenanAdam Keenan Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Thanks for the reality check. I'll take it away and review again.

    Thinking about it v2 range is probably pretty premium, whereas v1 has been passive and been losing so probably wider range.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    Thinking about it v2 range is probably pretty premium, whereas v1 has been passive and been losing so probably wider range.

    Yes. Two different player types + two different positions/actions. Hope I didn't sound abrupt, not intentional. I'm still learning as well (and a long way to go... lol).

    I think I lean towards c-bet here as I would with the top of my range, being oop to the tight/passive(?). Realize that you lose a lot of your range when you check.

    Check flop here I think could be ok when we have position. We may be more inclined to under rep the top of our range and induce a bluff when we are IP.

    You can give V2 a lot more hands that he checks flop with, including slow played monsters.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think I lean towards c-bet here as I would with the top of my range, being oop to the tight/passive(?). Realize that you lose a lot of your range when you check.

    This is not right on either point, and is a big one point of order. In fact, it's the exact opposite - as you bet, you lose combinations in exchange for elevating your range.

    Anyway, it's not a cbet and you should figure out why.

    Further, if you turn bet - which is unnecessary - it's a continuance. Don't turn the A9ss into the 45ss.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I think I lean towards c-bet here as I would with the top of my range, being oop to the tight/passive(?). Realize that you lose a lot of your range when you check.

    Anyway, it's not a cbet and you should figure out why.



    Challenge accepted. Your post and I will be spending some quality time together over the next few days.


  • Adam KeenanAdam Keenan Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Paul_K wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I think I lean towards c-bet here as I would with the top of my range, being oop to the tight/passive(?). Realize that you lose a lot of your range when you check.

    Anyway, it's not a cbet and you should figure out why.



    Challenge accepted. Your post and I will be spending some quality time together over the next few days.

    Board Ah 6s 10c Qs
    Love to know if you got any where with this one.

    I think I should check both flop and turn.
    - the turn ia hugely in favour of v2's tight range - combos inc AA (1) QQ (3) 1010 (3) KJ (12)
    - v1 I think is out of the running
    - if I check I'm able to call a smaller bet hoping to hit my 8 outs otherwise give up

    @persuadeo How's my logic?
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    Paul_K wrote: »
    Anyway, it's not a cbet and you should figure out why.

    Hey Adam...
    So I did mull this one over, and hoping I came up with a logical conclusion. I think the point regarding the cbet stems from streets of value combined w/ board texture.

    The hand is worth 2 streets of value at best, maybe just 1. The board is just static enough that it reduces our need to protect our top pair, which steers us away from an oop cbet.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Adam,
    - the turn ia hugely in favour of v2's tight range - combos inc AA (1) QQ (3) 1010 (3) KJ (12)
    Yes, this is important, but you should note that you have (ideally) some of these hands on the turn as well. So that means you should have some bets here. So the issue then becomes, which hands can sustain laying a price on the pot and toward what end on the potential river?

    Well, some flush draws will want to bet along with those strong hands that checked, and another subsection of them will want fold to an aggressive price, but why does A9ss specifically not want to fall into this b/f category? How does that inform our choice to wager in the first place?

    Paul, streets of value is a good concept, but not a primary one. For instance, it doesn't help you answer the question when and how much you should be betting. The weakness of the concept is built right into the phrase - ranges don't merely bet for value- and it is ranges that help inform the decision as to whether or not money should be put in the pot.

    Focus instead on what and who calls flop (it's built right into the range provided), and what happens if our hand can or cannot improve. If there is no real value to be had, our bet really becomes a naked protection bet. Does a hand that can make the nut flush want to be put into this spot on the turn if behind? Do we check fold the best hand on a later street? Can we find another hand of similar SDV that goes into that category and not expend this one? And so on.

    GL.

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