Hand Review

Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Live Poker Hands
Game = $1/$2 - 9 Players

Hero = About an hour into the session. Probably have a pretty loose/splashy image. Talked to a dealer who I know & a player at the table who I've played with about a hand a few weeks ago so anyone paying attention may consider me a 'regular' but I may be reaching. Raised once to $15 over a few limpers & got AIPF against an $80 short stack with my Q,Q > 7,7, check-raised a river bet with a boat over flush & was caught bluffing once when my $27 river bet into $40 pot was called. My $15 dollar raise was met with a couple of jokes about how they are not doing that at this table & most bets stayed in the $20-$25 range at most & I was the only one who had bet more hence the loose/splashy image.

Villain = Player I had played with before but didn't have any mental notes on him. Maybe late 30's / early 40's. Sat at the table with headphones on & kept to himself. Didn't make any memorable plays or hands at this point. All I know is I've played with him before but I couldn't say whether that meant he was good or not.

Eff Stacks = ~$300

Hero = :Ks :Qs

UTG (Hero) = Raises $12
All Folds
CO (Villain) = Calls $12
Everyone else Folds

Flop = $27

:Jc :7c :3s

Hero = Bets $16
Villain = Calls $16

Nothing here really told me anything about his hand. I'd expect him to float this flop bet with most of his range. My plan was to barrel off on any favorable run-outs & slow down on blanks.

Turn = $59

:9s

Hero = Bets $36
Villain = Calls $36

He took about 30 seconds to call & never looked like he was thinking of raising. At this point, I'm narrowing him down to J,10+ type hands, Flush Draws, 8,8 & 10,10. I don't think he has anything better than a single pair. My plan is to triple barrel on most rivers.

River = $131

:8d

Hero = ???
I knew this was a very bad card for me to bluff at since there are so few 10's in my range & a whole lot more in his. Other than pocket 10's & maybe A,10 suited, there's not many 10's I'd play this way to the river & I'm check calling all other hands with SDV. I wasn't sure what to do since my K,Q is never going to be good & I can only win by betting.

Hero = Bet $65
Villain = Calls $65

Villain wins pot with :Qc :9d

After about a minute of going back & forth, the villain eventually called & tabled the winner. I'm fine with the way he played the hand & the only surprising part to me was that he would call my open with Q,9o but I don't find much fault with his play outside of that.

I went with a half pot sized bet since I figured that's how I would bet a 10 & was hoping this player would find that bet size to be for value but I think that's a mistake & I should bet bigger in this spot when betting for value or bluffing.

Comments

  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Hey Steve. Interesting hand. Haven’t checked the spoiler yet.

    The turn card, even though improving your holding, is fairly dangerous and improves a lot of his calling range. Absent a solid read on V, although we suspect he is competent, you could consider a check/call turn. It’s gonna be unpleasant the times you get raised here. Barreling oop is not usually ideal, much less on this dynamic board.

    Would like to see some opinions on your turn sizing. Is this standard for you or is there a reason for going large here?

  • Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    @Paul_K Interesting point on the turn card improving his range. Looking back, I definitely had the blinders on & only thought about how the turn improved my equity in the hand. In hindsight & to your point, the 9 is a much better card for him & shouldn't really improve any of my holdings. I did not consider a check-call though I can now see the merits behind it especially since, like you noted, a raise by the villain would be a disaster.

    It took me some time to come up with my turn bet. I defaulted to the line of thinking, "if I'm going to bet, I need to deny odds to a flush draw" but also wanted to put some pressure on him since I was still semi-bluffing. We were both playing somewhat deep so I was Ok going on the higher side of a 1/2 to 2/3 type bet.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Played a session at the MGM and had been doing fairly well and was up the session until a new player came in. I was playing a snug range and doing a pretty good job of reading the board and players ranges. I had previously won a big pot on the river with barreling with AQs hand that had missed the flop, and honestly was probably feeling a bit more empowered than I should have. Point being, I tried to barrel this new player off of his hands with some aggressive bets and ended up losing 2 hands nearly back to back at the end of my session against this same player. These two hands quickly turned my soon-to-be winning session into a losing one.

    This post made me realize on both of those hands, I was OOP. Good lesson for me, so thanks for turning the light bulb on in my head.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭
    Steve M wrote: »
    Flop = $27

    :Jc :7c :3s

    Hero = Bets $16
    Villain = Calls $16

    Nothing here really told me anything about his hand. I'd expect him to float this flop bet with most of his range. My plan was to barrel off on any favorable run-outs & slow down on blanks.

    You may think there is nothing to say, but this bet is a problem IMHO.

    VILLAIN
    Why do you bet into a Villain you consider a station ?
    You do realize you have around 25% equity if he has a made hand (down to WP aka A3 or better) + :CLUB: FD ? And 35% if he float with ALL his gutshots. Then your equity increases only if he floats with air.
    BUT, if he does float so lightly, then you should have a mental note on that about him - already from this session - as you should have noticed he doesn't fold postflop (at least to a c-bet).
    Who is you Villain (station, floater, fit-or-fold) will change your plan.

    RANGE
    Now, you've plenty of hands with great equity. Which ones do you then put in your "bluff" range ?
    I'm not sure I'd put KsQs in a bluffing range against a station. Because you will bloat the pot with marginal equity.
    And I disagree with you: if you bet flop, you kinda "have to" bet turn if it's a brick. Because then you're screaming you've a hand ready to let it go; maybe not too problematic against a bad player, but any ok-player is gonna stab you IP often and you gonna be in a bad spot.

    Now I could see KsQs in a bluffing range IF Villain has the tendency to float lightly but fold to a 2nd barrel. Because then you can expect a weak lose range on the flop, but a lot of fold equity on the turn. Also then you have many cards in your favor: A, K, Q, T, :SPADE: , maybe even a low :CLUB: .

    BET SIZING
    Also you're super duper deep. Eff. around 280 and pot is 27. SPR of 10 is big. Betting 16 into 27 is not optimal.
    Depending on the profile of Villain - being a station or only floating the flop - you can size smaller (if station) or bigger (if flop-floater) as well.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The flop bet is not the problem, as two overs and a backdoor draw are plenty to justify a wager on this board. There are maybe a few two pair your opponent can have that you won't, and but most definitely crappy draws, small pairs and floats which will call flop, fold turn on the PFR's improvements and advantage cards.

    As noted above, the turn play is noticeably poor. Start with a check, and consider a x/r, as your value hands that need protection will often want this line.

    Conceptually, knowing what boards to bet and what and how to lay prices on them is your central issue, judging by this hand.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I don't disagree. KsQs can be c-bet. Without notes about Villain, it's a hand I might c-bet pretty regularly for the exact reasons you said - for some, repeated :-) - and depending on V's profile.
    persuadeo wrote: »
    As noted above, the turn play is noticeably poor. Start with a check, and consider a x/r, as your value hands that need protection will often want this line.

    :9S: being of :SPADE: helps us more than V. We are more prone to have 2 :SPADE: than him because 9s blocs V floating with Js9s or 9s7s. He could have some better bckd FD, but these would be imho only AsJs and As7s - on the contrary, he could have other turned FD we dominated, like JsTs or 8s7s.

    But the :SPADE: being a 9 kinda helps a little CO calling range. But only a little since only gutshot completes (T8); and if V has T8, he surely has T9 and 98, which don't improved much. We could argue that he can turn 2P (J9, 97), but again, this also means he holds JT or 87, which will surely float again with the new gutshot.

    @persuadeo when you are talking about our "value hands that need protection":
    - do I understand right that you're talking about made hands like :KH: :KD: ? (= made hands AND easily facing hands with strong equity esp. through strong draws)
    - to balance these, why would we c-r turn with KsQs ? Wouldn't they prefer hands (like 77) or hands with great blockers (like AcAs) instead of good drawing hands (like KsQs, or AcKc) ? I'd merely say that these hands (KsQs) may also be the one looking for protection, no ?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Well firstly you don't protect hands like KsQs by betting into a board that doesn't want bets. Now a rational strategy both raises and calls you into oblivion - which in fact happened here on the even worse river barrel. So how to win becomes a problem when you are constrained to a x/c.

    The answer on the turn is to mix in with those calls the check raise in order to have a strong range when you shift into polarization after checking correctly. And yes, hands like KK are great holdings for this.

    Why? Because the opponent will bet this turn fairly often when checked to and with hands that that need value and protection but will be allowed to win too often if all of our strong draws x/c, x. In other words, a range that has incentive to bet and check back river, a range that doesn't want to face a check raise. In other words, by check-raising, OOP takes away some of IP's advantages.

    A short cut to the answer is to ask yourself, how do I win against the nut flush draw, which I don't want to showdown against unimproved? Hence we have incentive to x/c the nut flush draw and some much worse flush draws that can't improve to a winning pair and become give ups, yet still have some wins against his worse flush draws that can't bet given we retain bluff catchers that simply checked poor turn to call down on bricks. This further retains our ability to bluff the river credibly when instead of being forced to lead weak, the nut blocker of either suit can be x/r'd after the x/c, which our K and Q high hands don't want to do, given the Ax is unaccounted for.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Ok, I got your explanation of why check-raising. But I'm not sure I got why turn c-bet is bad against a loose sticky passive player?
    Against other kind of Villain, I agree that we would have to check (way) more, which then leads to your upper post. But against a station, can't we just bet turn with our (range and cards) equity, even against nut FD ?
    The only reason I can see after playing with flopzilla and equilab, is that there are many run-outs our hand doesn't want to see on river (maybe any :CLUB: , 6, 7, 8, 9, and J?), that we want to build the pot before having to dodge them.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, a couple things:
    1. We're not talking about a station, or a loose-sticky opponent in this hand, as far as I can tell.
    2. If he is loose sticky and passive, our bets have low FE, so why bet without high SDV at all. Further, when we check, he always lets us realize for free if he is truly that passive.
    3. Even a loose sticky player's reaction to a bet is different than a xr.

    In sum, I don't create lines to work with irrational opponents, as the strongest line still tends to work with them anyway. If someone is insanely outside the box, the answer is apparent anyway - ie. if they just fold 100% of the time, our range doesn't really matter, or if they call 100% of the time, our wagers are pretty clear if we like money.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    ideal turn barrel card, ideal check fold river card. why is 1/2 size considered "large?"

    mostly everything in villain's range after calling pre, flop, and turn, is smashing this runout. its hard to imagine you'd value bet anything here cept for a T.
  • Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    How bout just over bet the turn?

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