Pocket 8s MP

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
$1/$3 MGM National Harbor this past Friday. First hand I have played in session which is important because I only know one other person at the table and have only been at table for four hands. I typically play very tight for first 2-3 orbits to get a sense for the standard table raise, what people are chasing draws, playing too wide, too tight, etc. I typically just try to get a sense of the table for a few orbits before opening up.

I am dealt 88 in MP however, and open raise to $15. I get 3 callers all of whom are behind me.

I had sat down with $300 so have $285 effective going to the flop. Hijack has $75 left; cutoff has $200 and button has easily $2,000 in front of him. No reads on any player, never seen them before.

The flop comes 8h 6c Kh so I've made my set but with two to the flush on the board, I feel I have to c-bet here and given the multi-way pot, I chose a bigger sizing and decided to bet closer to 3/4 pot with $50. Any issue on the sizing here? I don't want a flush draw to see a cheap card but I also do want some action here given that I am almost certainly ahead unless someone didn't 3 bet kings behind me, which, normally I would say is a good bet that someone would raise on kings but I have never seen these players before so didn't want to bank on that assumption in real time.

In any event, hijack and cutoff fold. Button calls. The turn is 5h, so a flush draw has gotten there. I elect to check which I think is a pretty bad idea here but wanted to get some feedback. I think I've signaled to villain that I do not have the flush and have given him the chance to bluff me.

These situations vex me consistently. With 3 hearts on the board, should I be checking a set here or bet here? I've basically signaled to V that I am pumping the brakes here and have given him an excellent chance to push me off something due to the threat of the flush. How should I handle this?


  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    Vs unknowns, it really comes down to the board and likely combos. We may not have solid reads, but with a 2k stack, we can assume button is very active and probably not going to be afraid of calling large bets.

    Here, there are so many more Kx he called the flop with vs flush draws. Around 2.5 to 1. So in this case, you should likely continue betting for value. His reaction should tell you a lot. If he raises your bet, you should probably give him credit.

    If you don't have flopzilla, get it. When you use it to start looking at ranges on flushy board types, they begin to become less intimidating.
  • Brian BBrian B Red Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    I think when you bet 3/4 pot on the flop you are getting your opponents to fold out everything except top pair +,oesd and flush draws. If i thought i could get my opponents to lead those hands or wider after i check flop (especially the button), i think i would take the check raise flop line. I think the button would bet/call wider as he is in position . I think the passive players will lead their Kx hands as they would be scared of the draws. I think most turns are going to be pretty clean for us to get our stack in. On flush filling turns I think you can lead small to induce raises from weaker holdings especially by the button on the turn. I think checking flop also allows us to get to a cheaper showdown with holdings like KQ,KJ,QQ,JJ. As far as bluffs in my range on the flop if i chose to lead or check raise i would probably use Ax holdings w flush draws attached to them and blockers that block Kx like AQ,AJ,A10 (hearts)
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    I like the check raise on the flop myself, unless my opponents are very passive. Leading into a 4 way pot looks strong, and double barrelling looks very strong, so unless your in a loose cally game, you might as well check raise early. Many players will call the check/ raise with a draw who will fold the turn to a second barrel having lost the draw. It also protects the fact that you should be checking into a 4 way pot often when you miss oop.

    As played, I generally check/call the turn here, and reevaluate the river.....If you bet out you get called by AK with the Ace of hearts, maybe QQ JJ with a heart and not much more, (unless villain is very loose). I also think few players will double barrel the turn and river. Remember this guy called you with something, do you really think he is turning KT into a bluff or even TT or something like that. His only logical bluffs would be a straight around the 8 6...and he probably has as many flush draws as missed straights.

    One thought and its a matter of taste. I also tend to play tight for a round or two in and unknown game. But you can buy in for 150, for that round or two, and then reach into you pocket and add in the other 150 (or more) once you know whats going on.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Agree with @Brian B : bigger the c-bet, thinner and stronger will be the continuation range. Not a bad sizing in a vacuum, but you've to ask why this sizing: do FD (worst) still call? Do weak KX (KJ, KT) still call? Because if they fold most of their range, then great for a bluff, but... letting money on the table with a strong value hand.
    Also Brian pointed out something important as well you forgot to take in account: 2 Villains are rather short stacks - and you should aim to put all their chips in. If they do, the pot will also bloat (with loosing range and you having a monster) AND you will be able to play your stack against BU. Pot geometry!

    @Eazzy totally agree about the c-r. I'd but go one step further: We could use HJ short stack in our advantage - if he is able to be active.
    He has 75$ in a 64$, so he could easily try to shove if he feels it, if he has a piece of the board. If we bet less than 50% of his stack and he shoves, then the action is reopen (isn't the case with a 50$ bet). In this scenario: we bet, HJ shoves, CO/BU could call, we then can squeeze and take CO uncompleted stack along for a really bad price for him (if he feels committed or sees us weak) and if so BU could have hard time to call HJ but fold to the squeeze.

    @Jordan Power Don't see monster everywhere. :KH: on the board takes many FD out (TP+FD KhXh) out. Put Villain on a range, and see how many combos continue you beat and beat you. Calculate your equity and see if it's enough to your pot odds.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    Great responses here. @Red I love the idea of using HJ short stack to my advantage. That is something I NEVER would have considered but I instantly see the value there. Can still raise with a small bet.

    And you're right, the Kh on the board does take out a lot of his combos that hit the flush. I need to spend more time in Flopzilla because these situations make me pump the brakes all the time, fearing the flush. I did continue here; I am just starting to get comfortable with combos here and I sort of realized that the likelihood he had the flush went down with the king out there. I need to spend more time to make that information come front of mind in the moment.

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