Hand reading vs Fish

Greg_the_EngineerGreg_the_Engineer Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
So, i'm working on my hand reading skills, and something came up last night.

I don't want to discuss the actual hand, just using this as an example:
We play 1/3, effective stacks are about $500. My friend had KK on the button. UTG limps, MP bets $10, HJ calls, he bets $75 (Alot I know, but you have to understand the game dynamics, just assume this is the only way to isolate), MP calls, the rest all fold. Flop was Q96r. MP bets to $100. Moving to the end of the hand, KK eventually lost his stack on the river as it bricked out and MP turned over Q6o.

Question is, how do you ever do any hand reading post game analysis when you have players like this? The first step in hand reading is to put your opponent on a range of possible hands he would have, but no where in reality can you have Q6o in his range, but there it was. Moving forward in other situations, how can I handle this extreme type of player and actually make off table work realistic? Hoe can you start this process, and how can you proceed with any degree of precision?


  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 887 ✭✭✭
    edited October 9
    Hand reading against very loose players who have erratic large preflop ranges starts on the flop. The funnel approach of starting with a range and cutting parts off it, does not work very well at most low stakes poker. When its all you have yes use it.

    But most players play so passively, and/or play different parts of their range so differently, that the information on the flop turn and river...so out ways information preflop.

    Sure in many situation all you can go with is preflop information...you raise he calls, you cbet...as here he will either check his entire range or he acts after you, you have to go with some loose guess as to what his preflop range looks like.

    But once he donks, or raises you or calls your cbet...you have somewhat reliable information. In some cases absolute information.

    My point here is not to ignore preflop action except in the most extreme case (as against a fish who never folds preflop)....but give much more credence to later action.

    So against very loose or very agro players you just have to exploit their loose range, raise big made hands like KK very large...as you friend did, and then hang on. Tend to play hands the flop top pair good kicker (second pair top kicker), more then hands that flop equtiy and depend on fold equity to be profitable.

    But think about it this guy donk out 100, into a 150 pot thats a lot of information, you can't go back and say well he can't have Q6 because he can, you just have to say, this means XYZ to you here.....if you watch this guy and he donks big with 2 pair+ but check calls, AQ type hand, and draws....you might be able to find the fold. Note it would be one hell of a read with this strong a hand...but the idea is there.

    Put it another way, in the book Easy Game, Andrew Seidman says hand reading is easy....if they are passive, you fold when they raise, if they are aggressive, you call with a hand when they raise. Easy game.

  • Greg_the_EngineerGreg_the_Engineer Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    Thanks @Eazzy , very good reply. So the question to me now is, does it mess you up somewhat if you are trying to improve your hand reading skills and range an opponent PF, when their range PF is basically the entire board, on some players? Trying to wrap my head around the balance between the theoretical hand reading skills and the practical application at low stakes.
    I would be worried about narrowing my opponents range too much PF and then it messes up the entire analysis as the hand progresses. Get in a spot where you discount a hand and get popped because you've removed it incorrectly.
    Or is it basically kind of ignoring a PF starting range (for some players) and starting to narrow post flop instead.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭✭
    To complete @Eazzy : pay attention how (bet sizing, range, board, position) and when (PFR, c-bet, raise, stab, donkbet) players show aggression. This will give a tremendous amount of information about V's range.

    In your example, V donkbets. But some will donk smart taking advantage or their range and board; some will donk with bad hands to see where they are at; some will donk with a hand they like "for value" (even if it's TPnK); some will donk - aka raise whatever their position - but only with a monster.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭
    Why do you think that jacking up your pre-flop 3betting amount is the answer against this type of fish?
  • Greg_the_EngineerGreg_the_Engineer Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    Why do you think that jacking up your pre-flop 3betting amount is the answer against this type of fish?

    Wasn't me, was just using it as an example.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    well, that 3 bet is pretty spectacular if q6 is calling
  • Greg_the_EngineerGreg_the_Engineer Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    well, that 3 bet is pretty spectacular if q6 is calling

    Again, didn't post the hand to discuss the strategy, just using it as an example of a real life hand and how to analyse off table to improve hand reading skills vs fish

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