3bet TT in UTG+1?

moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
Friends of mine were debating heatedly on Facebook this live hand that someone else posted. There was enough divergence and passion in the responses -- and I was sort of on an island with mine -- that I wanted to cull your thoughts and wisdom. I'll share my thoughts (not sure if it's wisdom!) later...

"You sit down at $2/5 ($400)
Utg makes it $15, you’re next to act with TT
What’s the correct play here?

My very first hand at the table but I’ve already noticed a few stations behind me.

I knew most of the player’s I’d like to think my image as tight /passive"


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    If you've station behind you (=little/no 3bet-squeeze, like to overcall their losing hands), I'd flat TT. Good odds and great implied odds.

    3bet for isolation is meh out of the blue. At 2/5 we can expect most of V to be position-aware, aka having a strong range. I'm not sure I want to 3bet with TT when I've almost no blocker ability and will have a hard time to manage the flop with low SPR when we miss the set.
    Also if you 3bet TT for "value", then it means TT+. What would be the 3-bet range? TT+/AJs+/AQo+/KQs/some bluffs ? This seems way too wide and spewy against UTG / UTG's range at 80bb. If we do 3bet that often and if UTG know that, he can then 4bet-shove and force us to spew or fold TT.

    3bet for bluff... Could be, but I prefer other hands like A5s or KJo. I feel letting money on the table if I make stations and UTG fold with such a strong hand as TT.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Agree with the above. I'm not 3-betting here from UTG+1. Someone opening from UTG, if I have no read on them, I am not going to start 3-betting them with a hand that I am going to fold to a 4-bet.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    3 betting merged with 80bb is rarely ever good idea. There are exceptions, but this isn't one of them.

    Seems like expectation of calls behind make flatting even more enticing.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you @Red, @Jordan Power, and @Paul_K.

    @Paul_K: I think that you hit my biggest issue. All the comments by my friends were aligned with the three of yours -- flat-calling is best. My biggest issue, as @Paul_K alluded to, was the Hero in this hand buying in for $400 at 2/5.

    IMO, having a more meaningful stack as a buy-in is essential because this is a hand and a spot where I would want to 3bet if I were playing as deep as I should be. After making that comment, everyone else continued to insist that, regardless of stack depth, flat-calling would be preferred.

    If V had, say, $800+, then would y'all move to the 3bet side?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    If V had, say, $800+, then would y'all move to the 3bet side?
    Heads-up, only if I know I can put TT in a merged 3bet range. But this is a wide 3bet range already, so only if V is going to give action wide enough that TT is going to play well on future street or against a 4bet (3bet/fold is erk with TT). 800$ or 160BB, I'm not sure that the standard dude is going to be wide enough for us to play profitably TT HU on later street.
    So not out of the blue, but I could see some situation where we could.

    But now the table put us with stations after us and we are EP.
    Do we want to make stations fold preflop ? I'm not sure, I prefer to grab them by the chips postlfop. It depends on how UTG plays postflop too; only a rather passive or a rather straightforward V is really in our advantage. Sitting between an barreling UTG and calling LP isn't the place I want to be with med PP.
    Also I've to know if station cold call 3bet often. If so, then it's a terrible idea to 3bet, as we will go MW with a med PP in a bloated pot and without a great position. Not the situation I'm looking for.
    So sitting EP with still calling station, I'm not 3betting TT with 800$. Maybe 1200$+ (250bb+)
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 307 ✭✭✭
    I think @Red pretty much nailed it. UTG+1 vs. UTG 3-bet range should be quite tight. No reason to A.) Build a pot when there's a good chance you'll be OOP to callers behind you on a bad board for TT (which is most) or B.) Fold out the bottom of UTG's already theoretically tight opening range.

    Raising here with this stack will really just unnecessarily commit us to the pot when we've literally only received one single piece of information about the other hands in play, and the information was not good news.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Despite being OOP, I am probably 3-betting this all day long. I get the disadvantage of the poor position, but if I 3-bet, I am applying aggression and taking the initiative.

    If we are afraid of having the 5th best hand in poker and probably being ahead at this point, what is our strategy moving forward? It would mean we are praying we either flop our set or all under cards - and even if we are fortunate enough to flop our overpair, it still may make for some tricky decisions down the road with so many players. If that is the case, this hand may as well be pocket fours and we are just set mining.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    If we are afraid of having the 5th best hand in poker and probably being ahead at this point
    How is it the 5th best ? Do you prefer it to AKs just for 1% ? But how does TT perform postflop compare to AKs ?

    Ahead "at this point". And that's the problem, "at this point".

    Don't spew!
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    LOL. I understand your point about spewing chips. But which is more risky, getting into a pot with this holding multiway (>3), without the initiative or entering the pot taking the initiative HU or against 2 players? I am going to flop an overpair 25% of the time and my TT will be a weak or below TP 63% of the time. I get we are OOP, but I think there is more risk in not playing it somewhat aggressive.

    And all hands are either ahead or behind pre-flop, which is why 7-2 cracks AA at times, but you cannot ignore the fact you have the best hand pre-flop just because he may pull ahead on OTF. TT still performs very well against his pre-flop range.

    My main point is, if you are limping with such a strong holding with one of the best hands you can be dealt, it may as well be a small PP if we are playing it so timid.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leading question: If turning 1010 into 44 is the answer, is flatting 44 a good idea?
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    @persuadeo Great question. In general if I am entering a pot, I am coming in for a raise. In this scenario, I would fold 44 and raise TT.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I apologize for the delay in getting back to your responses. Sorry -- I do appreciate y'all taking the time!

    Here is what I said to the other guys after noting the primary issue, IMO, being the small stack size: You've got to raise this hand.

    If you flat-call, then, with all the stations behind, you're simply set-mining with tens. Okay. Not terrible, but not ideal.

    If you 3bet -- enough to fold out most/all the stations -- then you're hopefully left heads-up against the pre-flop raiser. He is a tight player, meaning that he'd likely only 4bet/shove AA, KK -- maybe adding AK or QQ depending on his image of Hero. In those cases, it's a pretty easy fold.

    Wait, wait, wait, I hear people saying, Why do you want to 3bet only to fold??

    For me, that's only about the cost of flat-calling and then calling one post-flop bet. I'd much rather have the initiative. V could easily fold out a hand or two that has tens beaten. And, if V just flat-calls, then a cbet will often win the pot. Heck, V might even fold out queens at some point!

    Bottom line, if V's opening range is, say, TT+, AK, then V will have hands that flat-call more often than hands that V would 4bet. If V 4bets, then we can comfortably fold. If V flat-calls, then I think that we have a great chance of winning the pot later. Of course, if the ten spikes, then we're in really good shape to stack him.

    So went my thoughts, and so started a unanimous disagreement with them... :)
  • Fernando OFernando O Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    The line taken will largely be a function of psychological makeup which is a function of biological makeup.

    Which of the following lists resonates with you?

    List 1:
    Pride, Self-esteem
    Risk seeking and tweaking

    List 2:
    Blessed are the poor
    Sacrifiice, Charity
    Don't rock the boat

    Those who find that List 2 resonates with them are very likely to seek the safety of the herd and set mine; why rock the boat when we don't have AA?

    Those who are more ambitious are likely to take a very different line than the sheep who are fond of what List 2 has to offer.


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