How bad did I play this

John ValentineJohn Valentine Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
Live game. Table just opened. 1/3 NLHM. I'm utg with $275. Villian has me covered.
I call with ATo. My thinking here is see a flop cheap and fold if I miss. I probably should have raised.
Villian is utg+2. He calls. 2 more people call and we see the flop 4 handed.
$12.00 in pot.
Flop is T59 rainbow.
I bet $15.
V. calls. Everyone else folds.
4th street is J.
I bet $20. V. raises to $75.
I thought about it and decided to fold.
What does everyone think.
Analysis please.

Comments

  • SamBurnettN17SamBurnettN17 Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    Hey, I think you probably made the best call here. Villain could hold any overpair card to your pair of tens. You have no flush draw or straight draw so the only have 3 outs on the river giving you 6% equity if villain does hold say QQ. Villain could also hold a straight draw if he has say QK and your Ace could hit making you shove on the river only to lose to a straight. You lived to face another day! I am no expert not long taking poker seriously but with the studying I have done and not knowing how Villain plays i.e. is he tight or loose I would say you probably made the best call here!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭
    I call with ATo. My thinking here is see a flop cheap and fold if I miss.
    Stop playing bingo and start playing poker.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭
    I call with ATo. My thinking here is see a flop cheap and fold if I miss. I probably should have raised.
    You should know BEFORE going to a casino. Studying off table is important before/between sessions. This also includes having ranges ready (and fitting your strategy). So, is ATo in your opening range ? Why ?
    Flop is T59 rainbow.
    I bet $15.
    Why bet more than the pot ? What other hand would you bet so ? What hands would V call you with ?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Hey, I think you probably made the best call here. Villain could hold any overpair card to your pair of tens. You have no flush draw or straight draw so the only have 3 outs on the river giving you 6% equity if villain does hold say QQ. Villain could also hold a straight draw if he has say QK and your Ace could hit making you shove on the river only to lose to a straight. You lived to face another day! I am no expert not long taking poker seriously but with the studying I have done and not knowing how Villain plays i.e. is he tight or loose I would say you probably made the best call here!

    You would not seen people limping QQ and KQ. You can effectively take overpairs out of the ranges of everyone in the hand due to the lack of a raise.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Live game. Table just opened. 1/3 NLHM. I'm utg with $275. Villian has me covered.
    I call with ATo. My thinking here is see a flop cheap and fold if I miss. I probably should have raised.
    Villian is utg+2. He calls. 2 more people call and we see the flop 4 handed.
    $12.00 in pot.
    Flop is T59 rainbow.
    I bet $15.
    V. calls. Everyone else folds.
    4th street is J.
    I bet $20. V. raises to $75.
    I thought about it and decided to fold.
    What does everyone think.
    Analysis please.

    You know you should have raised if you are saying "I probably should have raised." It's okay, we all make mistakes. If I can guess what you were thinking here it was probably something along the lines of "Hm, A10 is a decent hand. I want to play this. But damn, if I raise and I get 3-bet, I am going to have to fold. And ugh, I have to act first on each street in that case unless one of the blinds calls, but still I am OOP. This is going to be really tough to play post flop in that case."

    So maybe A10 offsuit should not be in your UTG opening range if you're going to just limp it. I will fold this hand UTG on some tables if there's a ton of 3-betting going on. But going into any hand, it is generally always going to be better to raise than to limp. There are some situations where one can limp (small blind complete being I think the most common) but generally, don't shrink from hands you want to play. And also remember: no one knows you have A10. You're projecting a range to other players. Raising from UTG signals strength and yes, you may have to act first and may get a c-bet called and have to double barrel or check/fold, but you also have the ability to keep the pressure on your opponents. They're going to miss that flop a large portion of the time when you raise. By limping, you drastically expand their ranges (especially in the blinds) and so it is quite possible somebody hit their jack (or even better - made a second pair).
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Hey, @John Valentine: I think that you're in a mess of hot water everywhere.

    Let's work backwards (and my comments will align with a lot of the others above).

    As played: What hands limp behind you pre-flop, flat-call your overbet to the flop, and then raise your underbet to the turn that you have beat? Very, very few that I can think of...

    ...unless V noted that you overbet the flop and then underbet the turn and thought that you might be "trying to see where you're at" [tip: don't do that!] and could bet you off the pot with any two cards.

    Since it's a new table, you have no idea at this point which of the above is true. THAT is a huge problem that we'll get to in a moment. Here, though, which is more likely? Easily the former. So, yeah, at this point, good fold.


    As a general rule, we want to make decisions at any point that will lead us down a path of clearer decisions later. For instance, If I 3bet pre-flop, what would my response be if the original raiser 4bets? You don't want to have to tank and decide -- you should know already. One of the axioms in poker is to make purposeful choices now so that you minimize difficult choices later.

    When you bet out your $20 on the turn, it's pretty clear that you opened yourself up to a difficult choice were V to raise -- which he did. That is because, at this point, you are playing pretty blindly against V's holdings. There hasn't been range-narrowing or hand-reading at all during this hand (as evidenced by your fear of V possibly holding QQ, which, as noted above, is highly unlikely since he didn't raise pre-flop). You're playing blindly here.

    Back up to the flop now. When you lead out for $15 (why overbet the pot?), what was your plan for future streets depending on the run-out? I would guess -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- that you were planning to re-evaluate on the turn if you were called on the flop. And that puts you in the position of having to make an unnecessarily difficult choice on the turn. Here, you also have to consider what hands V might have that he would limp in pre-flop and call here on the flop. And how does his range of hands play against your AT and/or against the range of hands that you would limp in with pre-flop and then overbet the flop?

    Next, back up to the pre-flop callers. You have NO idea what they have. Could they have AT? Sure. KQ? Sure. [Would this V with KQ call your pre-flop bet?? Hard to know...] JT? Sure. 98? Sure. T5? Sure. A bunch of other random hands? Sure. At this point, you have no idea what you're up against.

    Then, back up to your pre-flop decision. As noted above in other comments, limping is almost assuredly the worst choice here. And, as you can see from my thoughts above, it sets you up as poorly as possible post-flop.

    Finally, back up to your off-the-table prep. If you want to play this hand -- and it's a new table!! -- then raising with a plan to cbet and potentially double-barrel quite a lot of boards has merit. If that's not how you want to play this hand early at the table, the folding has merit. You can't really go too wrong with either of those options -- you just need to know why you're selecting that option and how this hand helps align with your overall approach to playing in early position at a new table.


    Last comment: Tone is never clear in a forum, so I hope that you read this as intended -- my thoughts about the play of the hand. Hopefully helpful (feel free to disagree about that!) but certainly intended as helpful with no intent to be harsh (please let me know if I failed there!).

    Thanks for posting the hand!
  • John ValentineJohn Valentine Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Thanks everyone, especially moishetreats for the analysis. I found out later the V had 2 pair TJo. At least that is what he claimed.
    I tend to play to passively preflop and this can get me in trouble, but I'm trying to improve. Ill keep posting hands and keep learning from everyone. Again thanks.

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