Crushed The Flop: How to extract value?

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
$1/$3 MGM national harbor, about 4 hours into my session, sitting with $509 behind at about 11:30 pm.

I am dealt Ah Kh in MP and after two limpers I enter, I raise to $15. I get callers in cuttof and on the button.

Going to the flop stacks sit:

Hero: $494
Cutoff: $~200
Button: ~$300

The flop comes Ad, Kd, Ks and I am first to act. So just a casual flopped boat. I decide to check here hoping someone will bet.

First question: should I be betting here? I personally don't see what a c-bet does for me here. There's only 1 combo that puts me behind (and I took AA out of the equation pretty fast given that neither button or cutoff - one a decent player I had seen before and one an unknown) so I know I am way ahead.

My raise was the table norm so there's a decent chunk of my range that does not connect with this board and I don't want to scare any dominated hands out of the pot. Is this a spot to let someone try to improve? I sort of figured it was but want some feedback here.

The turn cam 8s, leaving a second flush draw on the board but the 8 probably not improving anyone unless someone with pocket 8s came along, certainly in both of their flatting ranges.

I don't have much intel on cutoff but button's calling range preflop to me looked like 2s - 10s, suited connectors better than 89, suited gappers J9+, KJ,KQ, AQo. Anything better I would have expected a 3 bet. Given that there's only 1 king left in the deck and two aces, both their ranges miss this board a lot but there may be some flush draws out there still.

Betting here again to me seems a bad idea. But given that I don't think the 8 improved them at all, a check around is entirely possible it seems to me and I don't want that either, I assume. Or maybe it doesn't really matter since if I bet and they both fold, them seeing a final card may have improved them enough to bet?

So should I be betting here? And if so, sizing? I want someone obviously to try to take a stab at the pot. It seems odd to me that I had trouble playing a monster but I really have no idea how to get value out of this hand.

Comments

  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 67 ✭✭
    Q. How would you play other hands in your PFR range? For example, AQ? QQ? JTs?

    Despite the fact that few cards remain that hit this board, a cbet IP is likely for a part of your PFR range. Your opponents only limped, which reduces the hands that could have hit this flop. Checking to let them catch up isn't going to accomplish much because even if they catch bottom pair, they probably won't call a big bet for fear that you have Ax or Kx. I think this is a situation where you cbet. Diamond draw and/or someone who doesn't believe you might call the flop cbet but would fold to a delayed turn cbet. Also, Kx is calling (or raising), and they could be trying to slowplay themselves.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Neither player limped. The called my raise behind me. The two limpers mentioned in the post folded to my raise. Does that change how you think of it?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    If they have nothing, then odds are that you're not going to get called on any street or, at best, maybe for a small bet on one street*.

    If they have something -- Ax, Kx, flush draw -- then you have a good/great chance of getting them all-in.

    Yes, they'll miss more often than they hit. But, for when they do hit, you'll get paid off far more than you would the potential one street of value if they had missed.


    *Exception: If you have been opening widely and often and cbetting/barreling liberally, then you might get called down lightly.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    @moishetreats so you're saying I'm not always going to get paid off on my monsters?! The horror...

    Point well taken. I lean toward the checking/catch up option here.

    Any value to an underbet here, though? I want to try to entice someone to do something foolish. Does this ever work or am I just letting them fold out their hands that might catch up if I let them check.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats so you're saying I'm not always going to get paid off on my monsters?! The horror...

    Point well taken. I lean toward the checking/catch up option here.

    Any value to an underbet here, though? I want to try to entice someone to do something foolish. Does this ever work or am I just letting them fold out their hands that might catch up if I let them check.

    You could try underbetting to induce someone to come over the top. Odds are, though, that as soon as you call that, they'll shut down... unless they have a monster, in which case your normal betting pattern would extract more.

    Look, when you flop the second-nuts on a board where it's almost impossible for anyone else to have anything, then it's just hoping, hoping, hoping that they have something OR that they try to steal the pot. There's no real way to know.

    I could argue for letting them catch up in order to try to extract a bet or two from them. No problem with that. I could argue for betting in the unlikely event that they have something to try to get their stack (my preference*).

    I might alone here, but I don't stress too much about these situations. It's usually pretty binary: they have something or they don't. I'd rather go big and hope that they do rather than trying to extract $15 later.

    One final thought: Is there a bad beat promo where you having a kings-full-of-aces boat is good? If so, then you'd want to bet out, too. If V calls, then great! If V folds, then you protect your hand from another ace or king hitting the board. Obviously, this is more likely (though unlikely at all) were you to have aces full of kings.


    *The other benefit of betting, by the way, is, if you get to showdown somehow, then people will see that you bet your monster-made hands, helping you potentially steal pots later. But, that's really an ancillary benefit -- though also the result of a purposeful strategy, too.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Bad beat is only quad 7s+, unfortunately. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I wasn't stressing about that spot either, really. I just was wondering if there was a better way to play these. I suppose it'll be left to whether V has anything and if they're apt to try to steal a pot with a big over bet.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 128 ✭✭
    I slowplay hands that have the board so locked up that I "have to let my opponents catch up". Much like @moishetreats stated, I will underbet each street like crazy (pending on the card that comes of course), but nonetheless I underbet, and when the river comes I hit the time button to make it think like I'm trying to buy the pot with a bluff, and place a small enough bet to get called. If I'm OOP, I call down and then proceed to lead on the river with again, a small enough bet to call. If I feel my opponent will bet on the river, I check, and then x/r 2-2.5x so they can call.

    I can be wrong in my strategy here but it seems to work so far, either way, take it with a grain of salt. I agree also that this is a pretty rare and binary scenario.

    Anyone that would like to correct me in my ways, I am all ears!
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Notice how this one connects to the @LeChiffre post.

    Interesting.

    I'm glad that, even though I didn't make the connection, my thoughts and advice have been consistent between the two! :)
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    I just go ahead and fast play monster made hands. It's always seemed to me to be a binary they have or think they have some outs or not. If they have something they call other wise they don't. But many players in the 1/3 pool will not put their money in with a draw, even a good one, unless you lead them. Better to bet. Also unless I have a specific reason against a specific villain I don't under bet.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    If they have nothing, then odds are that you're not going to get called on any street or, at best, maybe for a small bet on one street*.

    If they have something -- Ax, Kx, flush draw -- then you have a good/great chance of getting them all-in.

    Yes, they'll miss more often than they hit. But, for when they do hit, you'll get paid off far more than you would the potential one street of value if they had missed.


    *Exception: If you have been opening widely and often and cbetting/barreling liberally, then you might get called down lightly.

    As I agree with your general comment, I really don't put a casual Villain being able to play for stack with only FD or AX on AdKdKs. A sticky/station one yeah, but a loose-passive one is rather to be scared easily (there is value to extract for sure, but stack, I doubt, imho)
    I think here there you miss (or didn't talk enough about) the difference between AKK and AAK.
    @moishetreats so you're saying I'm not always going to get paid off on my monsters?! The horror...

    Point well taken. I lean toward the checking/catch up option here.

    Any value to an underbet here, though? I want to try to entice someone to do something foolish. Does this ever work or am I just letting them fold out their hands that might catch up if I let them check.

    You could try underbetting to induce someone to come over the top. Odds are, though, that as soon as you call that, they'll shut down... unless they have a monster, in which case your normal betting pattern would extract more.
    Overbetting is a bad solution here. Overbetting sustain a pole range, which is not necessary considering flop texture. If you're betting for value, then you're mostly targetting KQ/KJ and FD, hoping they stick against an bet from trips. How many KX combos does V potentially have? And how many of them can sustain big pressure?
    Also by betting pole, you're betting a tiny part of your range. For the strong part of this pole range, I'd not do include AK as you're blocking so many 2nd best (trips) to call you; AA does a way better job.

    Now overbetting doesn't allow to bet a big chunk of our range, so we need to have (at least) 2 sizings here. I like underbetting a lot here. First it allow to bet a large chunk of our range, including many bluff (smaller sizing, less need of fold). Bad Villain (most of 1/2-1/3) don't know how to react to an underbet, and on this texture, will make a ton of mistakes. Based on your notes, you can either scratch a lot of value from 2nd best or make successful cheap bluffs (denying equity). AXX, AKX, AKX and similar are really hard to manage for Villain.
    I don't think an underbet will induce any raise considering flop texture. But bad villains can raise honestly, allowing us to play perfectly against them.

    Checking is a terrible option. Except against someone able to stab and call, where you can build a c-r range, I think you will way too often let the flop go checked through.
    Now sure we have the absolute nuts and we are not afraid of cards to come, but I think it's way easier to scratch 3x 1/3 pot bet than 2x 1/2 pot bet except on a cards which hits Villain hands strong. So underbetting seems to be better to get value than checking flop and betting turn.

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