Flopped Boat Multi-Way

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
Playing $1/$3 at MGM National Harbor about 2 hours into session, sitting with $690, and dealt QcQs in UTG+1.

UTG folds to me and I raise to $15. MP and SB call. SB is a regular who I've played with three or four times. He plays an incredibly wide range but applies extreme pressure postflop, making him very difficult to play against. MP is swiped in as a guest and has already shipped $500 and keeps nothing how she "brought $4,000 with her. Ain't nothin' but money." Very loose, getting to showdown with hands that are clearly dominated.

The flop comes Qh 4h 4s. Small blind bets into me for $15.

How do I proceed? I've flopped a boat and unless someone has flopped quads with the last remaining combo, I'm obviously in great shape.

MP as I have noted is not going anywhere when catching any piece of the flop; SB sticks around and barrels street after street, sometimes with air. His range as I think of it here is 22-JJ, 45s+ 9-10o+, suited gappers 9J+, AJ, KQ.

MP's range to continue here is really honestly only going to include pocket pairs, Qx holdings, and AK, AJ. But I had only played with her for an hour or so, so take this with a grain of salt but that is what I thought at the time.

I don't really see how SB hit this board enough to bet into me here and I want to build a pot if he's on a heart draw that he wants to disguise... I should just be calling here, right? I don't see a real reason to raise but when I get into situation where I think I 100% know the right play, I like to post them (as I am usually disabused of this notion quickly).

@GGECKO saw this hand so especially interested in your thoughts knowing the line I took, Patrick.

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    If someone is betting into you when you have the nuts, I am calling here 99% of the time. Especially with a person behind.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    100% call for me. With a plan To min check raise the turn on cards that hit his range. Then check the river hoping he bluffs at it. We feel he is bluffing so we don't want to apply too much pressure. That's my idea.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    If they are 200 bb deep with you, this is a raise. No one is folding a flush draw 200 bb deep. No one is ever folding a 4 as long as the flush draw does not get there. Do you really want to hit the nuts and make $100....Do you want them to hit a small flush on the turn and because your now over betting find a fold....

    The only time calling here is better is if the donker, starts bluffing small and then bluffs real big on later streets. with that read call ok. But even here good chance a bluffy donker will attack your raise with a flush draw or maybe even air as he thinks you would slow play any big hands. Ive seen lagy player get all in against a flop shove with A high because the felt the raiser, must be on a flush draw to make that raise.

    I mean even if you keep AK in for the $15 bet and an Ace hits the turn, how much more money are you making...other wise they only have 2 or 3 outs to hit a big hand and get the money in.
    Red wrote: »

    No that thread had two players with 100 bb or less...big difference.

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    @Jordan Power "brought $4,000 with her. Ain't nothin' but money." is this that like Romanian woman? I remember when I used to play there a lot, there was this like 50-60~ year old Romanian woman who used to always berate other players play, punt off $500 routinely, and then be like "ya ya I got thousands in my bag. You think your so good, stuck down here at $1/3 instead of $2/5 or $5/10, you're awful". And yet...here you are lady....punting stacks at $1/3.



    As @Eazzy said, I normally like a call here, as your basically untouchable, BUT, if V had say a FD, or a 4...you wanna play a pot for all the monies. And it's hard to get there without raises now. So yeah, if they have like 88...they may fold. Oh well, how much $ where you about to get out of them anyways? This lead is either a FD that wants to set its own price (my guess), a 4 (unlikely, a 4 should go for the ole check/raise or larger sizing to punish a Q or FD's), or a middling PP that wants to see where it's at (my 2nd best guess behind the FD).



    NOW....that's 1/2 the battle. Tell me how you proceed on various run outs if you do raise? I make it around $45-$50. A 4 isn't going anywhere. In fact, a 4 may just punt it right over top of you. Bingo. A FD may or may not decide to fold....stations won't fold it. On the turn....on a FD coming in...if they check....I say check....or bet really small...like 1/3rd the pot...like you got an overpair with a :HEART: in it....ya....that's the stuff. Get em to raise. Then appear like your pissed off that you bet, call, and pray for no final heart. Even if they have a 4 and a heart comes in, you will likely call again, and you can get maybe a bit more value from them on the river with a small bet. But a FD that comes in will likely lead. There is where you just call. On the river....when they bet again...your gonna shove...and they will hem haw and they likely know they are beat...but you got a huge pot already and they might just puke call.



    Now, when you flat.... here...and turn comes a blank...and they bet small again or check....your only gonna get 1 more street of value from them. A PP likely just gives up. A FD will only call a smaller amount. A 4 will bet again....but where do you raise? You see? The action is similar...in that your getting very little money out of FD's, and if the FD DOES come in....sure maybe they just call it all off on a paired board, I mean I don't think I could fold the NF here if my flush came in on the turn...but if they start raising me and I got a 10 high flush....man....I like cry about it and I fold, thinking you got AKHH...or maybe like I just think your going hard in the paint with :AH: Qx and are drawing the final heart...but that's such a ballsy move, I just dont' give neough $1/3 players the credit to do it, so I'll prob fold. Punish the station. Raise the flop. The ain't folding a 4 or a FD yet. *PS if you raise here with your QQ, you gotta raise with some other hands too. Maybe your :AH: Ax and :KH: Kx so that you got outs against a 4. I dunno. Maybe you don't need to be balanced here. I'd find some raises with other good hands though, as well as some FD's, and maybe even some AK's.. I don't take kindly to donk small donk leads into me.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    @Jordan Power This was a pretty awesome hand to watch play out. As we talked about this hand after our session, you already know I thought you played the hand well. I also think your opponents played their hands perfectly - to your advantage.

    On a side note, I cannot express how incredibly helpful to my game to have met Jordan. We observe each others play, "peer coach" one another, and keep each other motivated and focused. Our differences in our strengths and style of play ends up being a net positive because we get different points of view. We linked up on this site and both study RCP, so it always feels like we are on the same page.

    I'll let Jordan give the reveal on this hand...but as a teaser, Jordan did buy me a beer for our debrief session.

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    @Jordan Power "brought $4,000 with her. Ain't nothin' but money." is this that like Romanian woman? I remember when I used to play there a lot, there was this like 50-60~ year old Romanian woman who used to always berate other players play, punt off $500 routinely, and then be like "ya ya I got thousands in my bag. You think your so good, stuck down here at $1/3 instead of $2/5 or $5/10, you're awful". And yet...here you are lady....punting stacks at $1/3.

    Not familiar with that woman although I certainly know a few players who fit that bill.

    Regarding the rest of your post, I actually did elect to raise solely because of my read on my two opponents. I paused briefly and considered how the hand was going to play out. If basically concluded that if I raised to $50, MP was coming along with any piece of this flop, basically any Qx holding or a 4 (and would raise in the later case) and SB was going to come along at a high frequency on a draw or with any piece of the board.

    So I raised to $50. MP snaps $100 into the pot. SB smooth calls $85 more. I went into a brief tank here to decide on whether to just get it all in then. I decided against it and just called. Is it reasonable to conclude at this point that neither SB nor MP is on a flush draw? And if so, how should I proceed here to get all the money in?

    Turn is 9d, so a flush has not gotten there in any event. SB, however, fires again into me for $60.

    SB has $410 left; MP has $140 left. So with the bet of $60, I think I just call here and if she shoves, and SB calls, I can still shove, right? Thoughts here?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Calling is the technical answer but frankly I don't think it matters what you do. These villains are purely incompetent.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Calling is the technical answer but frankly I don't think it matters what you do. These villains are purely incompetent.

    Agreed. I just called. MP shoved, SB shoved. I called. No pocket 4s, thank goodness.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, that was my comment to @Jordan Power afterwards. They were so bad they literally played his hand for him.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    Yeah, that was my comment to @Jordan Power afterwards. They were so bad they literally played his hand for him.

    I still think my raise was a bad idea in that situation. I may have pushed flush draws out whereas I want that to hit. Idk, I was pretty irritated with myself for raising there in real time as you know... Worked out but I would have hated allowing some draws to press the fold button there.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    Yeah, that was my comment to @Jordan Power afterwards. They were so bad they literally played his hand for him.

    I still think my raise was a bad idea in that situation. I may have pushed flush draws out whereas I want that to hit. Idk, I was pretty irritated with myself for raising there in real time as you know... Worked out but I would have hated allowing some draws to press the fold button there.

    Really. You describe one player as liking to gamble and the other player as putting extreme pressure on post flop.

    And you think either of these players are the type to fold deep to a raise over a small bet, The women is likely to call or just get it in with a flush (she had the smaller stack?) because its a 3 way pot and she has a flush draw and thats what gamblers who don't care about money like to do. The lag player, set the price with a small bet, if he has a flush draw you have to give him the rope to do what lags love to do raise with draws, they don't set the price with a draw so they can fold to a raise especially deep.

    I think you played the hand perfectly...well at least the way I would have.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    GGECKO wrote: »
    Yeah, that was my comment to @Jordan Power afterwards. They were so bad they literally played his hand for him.

    I still think my raise was a bad idea in that situation. I may have pushed flush draws out whereas I want that to hit. Idk, I was pretty irritated with myself for raising there in real time as you know... Worked out but I would have hated allowing some draws to press the fold button there.

    Really. You describe one player as liking to gamble and the other player as putting extreme pressure on post flop.

    And you think either of these players are the type to fold deep to a raise over a small bet, The women is likely to call or just get it in with a flush (she had the smaller stack?) because its a 3 way pot and she has a flush draw and thats what gamblers who don't care about money like to do. The lag player, set the price with a small bet, if he has a flush draw you have to give him the rope to do what lags love to do raise with draws, they don't set the price with a draw so they can fold to a raise especially deep.

    I think you played the hand perfectly...well at least the way I would have.

    Yeah I should have said I think the raise is wrong in the aggregate. Against these specific players, it was probably the right call. But my decision making process was bad. It was "I haz boat. Raise." In the moment, I did not consider pricing out flush draws and these are the types of thoughts I would optimally like to have when making a decision. I still probably should have raised against these specific players, but in the aggregate I should probs just call.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »

    I'll let Jordan give the reveal on this hand...but as a teaser, Jordan did buy me a beer for our debrief session.

    I would have bought you a beer up 3 buy ins or down 3 buy ins ;)

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