Did I get rid of these queens correctly?

DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
Hi RCP,

Looking for some critique as I am not sure if this was a good fold:

Game: 100NL 6Max
Hero: $98.64--HJ-- :Qs :Qc
Villain: $103.47--UTG

**This particular villain was on the nittier side than the rest; played very tight ranges form EP, and even played a considerably tighter range than usual on the BU, also played pretty straightforward postflop.

Preflop: Villain opens up 4x, folds to hero, hero flats, folds around to a HU flop
**I thought about 4betting, but seeing as villain was nitty, I didn't want to potentially face a squeeze with the range which I assigned: JJ+/AJ+ from EP (given villain's bet size preflop) although as I'm typing this out, I am reconsidering my thought process and will run equilab to test see what my equity is against this range

Flop: :Ad :9s :9c
Villain bets 1/2 pot, hero calls
*I was considering a x/r here, but was also worried that villain was going to trap by playing cute

Turn: :2s
Villain checks, hero checks
*Even though I read this as a brick I felt betting here would be without purpose (something the CORE program has drilled into my mindset), I didn't feel it would be for value as the continuing range here would be any Ace, any set (which given the range I assigned, could only be aces), and AJ, AK of spades. I'm not really protecting anything seeing as I only block AQ of spades; finally bluffing is the last option..one that perhaps I should have taken

River: :Ts
Villain shoves, hero folds

I thought this was a easy fold..but the more I think about it, the more I feel I may have given up too easily here. My main concern was the turn, and potentially missing out on a spot where I could have take more control of the pot. Given how nitty villain was, I wanted to give the respect where I felt it was due with his river jam. Also, I'm looking to see if my mindset in general throughout the hand was reasonable, thoughts?
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Comments

  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    I would have 3-bet your QQ, as you have a premium holding and are IP.

    With incomplete information, and only using the betting patterns and your description of him, I am thinking he was holding an A and was afraid of you holding a 9, or an A with a better kicker. Given how nitty he is, you could have pushed him off his hand with a bet/raise OTF or T. The way you played, you basically telegraphed you had a lower pair and wanted to pot control to see SD cheaply.

    That being said, I like the fold on the end with his AI. Given his tendencies, you were probably beat and there was no reason to risk that amount to find out.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @GGECKO

    Apologies for missing information, any advice I will take for next time. I too agree with 3betting QQ here, especially since I'm IP (saw monsters when villain opened UTG). So overall, currently I definitely feel I should have played this differently, would you say that my turn play was a spot I missed for value?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Definitely a 3-bet with position here. When you don't get 4-bet, you'll have a lot of opportunities to keep applying pressure even when you don't hit a set, ya know?

    I think if you are betting the turn, you're doing it as a bluff because if he is as nitty as you say, I think he's got an ace that he doesn't feel so good about. Based on the range you provided, I think you could try betting pot on turn and take it down. Betting pot gives you 50% breakeven percentage. If you think V is going to fold to a pot sized bet 50% of the time or more, this is outright profitable.

    Once he shoves river, walk away from the queens, you're behind. No need to pay him off to see an Ax holding IMO.

  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    Thanks for the input brotha; looking back I definitely regret not 3betting this preflop. I actually thought about exactly betting pot on the turn, and did think of the BE math that's involved. Unfortunately I did not do a good enough job in reading villain's frequencies at the table to bet pot confidently, something I will be working on moving forward. Glad to at least see my fold wasn't a "nit fold" lol
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    I struggle with 3betting too, so I can sympathize but IP we gotta three bet it. It sucks when an A or K falls but it's important to remember that our range supports having an A or a K or two or both! I have to actively remind myself that no one can see my cards and that opponents have to consider my range as I consider theirs. Really hard to do but vitally important.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    Absolutely agree, if I 3bet here, assuming villain pays attention to my range, we can easily have an A or K in our range. I'm going to play around with Equilab and see what types of preflop/postflop equity Queens would have here against an EP opening range
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Do you really think he is only opening JJ+, AJ+ from UTG? That's a really narrow range, isn't it?
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    I think your check behind his signaled weakness. That was your time to assert control of the pot. If he answered with a call or raise, you know he has an A or 9 and you are way behind and you give up on the hand.

    While it's essential to be focused on playing the player, don't get to wrapped up in frequencies...instead, work on the hand reading. In this instance, given his player type, would he really be continuing in the hand without an A or 9? Maybe he tests you with a c-bet OTF, but if you come over the top of him w a raise, he will tell you very quickly where he is in the hand. Even if he had an A, he may be to scared of you having a 9 to continue. Most important thing, is if V shows resistance at all, he definitely has it and it's fine to give up.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @GGECKO

    I agree completely with your response, I will tell you why I did not x/r the turn, or raise the flop. I had the same logic you did in that, if he would continue, he would have A or 9, so as a newer player, I feel I got confused on whether or not I was "betting for information" (which I've read that is a big DON"T in poker). Understanding or having an idea of what villain's continuance range would be after the flop & turn, I started to overthink and start internalizing things like "Ok, if you bet, he calls, he has you beat, so fold. Wait no, that's betting for information, don't do that either." This is something I can work on for clear reasons..

    @Jordan Power

    The more I think about it, the more I feel I can throw 88+ in villain's opening range, and perhaps ATs, but given how tight he was even on the BTN, I assigned a tighter range. Also something I can work on
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    Yeah your initial range is only 5.1%. Even expanding to 8s, we are only at 6.5 percent. Do you think he would open KQ? I would open KQ before 8s from UTG (well I would open both but feel better about KQ).
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    @Deadlifts Yeah, here are my thoughts with "betting for information". No matter what your bet is for...value, a bluff, or equity denial...EVERY bet elicits information from your opponent, so in theory every bet you make will be a bet for information. If you had bet it would have been a semi-bluff bet that may have been strong enough to get him to fold some holdings to you. You had plenty of equity if called.

    The big takeaway is that any errors you made were not very substantial. It's really when we make large errors, does it effect our stack to a great degree. As most of the money we make at 1/3 will be our value hands being called by weaker holdings, when we are on the other side of that coin (or chip, if you will) we don't want to be giving anything away. Folding in the right spot is exploiting our opponent.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    KQ is one hand I seem to be forgetting here, I think mainly because I got lost in assuming that the average flat to 3bet range is 66+/AQ+ (based on the CORE program on here). KQ is actually a hand that I recently started realizing it's playability a lot more both pre and postflop
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @GGECKO

    Thank you, simply put this is all golden advice to keep in mind moving forward.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Deadlifts wrote: »
    @Jordan Power

    Absolutely agree, if I 3bet here, assuming villain pays attention to my range, we can easily have an A or K in our range. I'm going to play around with Equilab and see what types of preflop/postflop equity Queens would have here against an EP opening range

    This.

    By not 3betting pre-flop, you can't represent the ace on the turn. Maybe you have a 9, but there's a good chance that you raise the flop if you do. Bluffing the turn would be spewing money.
  • John ValentineJohn Valentine Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    I agree with the above comments, that you should 3-bet your QQs. Once that flop hits you can easily represent Axs. However, is V someone that will consider what ranges you might have?
  • Leath WLeath W Red Chipper Posts: 53 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I think the main issue is that you capped your range when you checked back the turn. When villain checks first he's most likely capped as well as the turn card puts a couple of straight and flushdraws out there. If villain had any AX or 9X holding he'd most likely fire again for protection. If you had bet here and the third spade rolled off on the river, villain would have most likely checked to you and you could have gotten your QQ to SD. An underbet on the turn could even incentivise him to call with his worse pocket pairs like 66-88 and TT-JJ.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @John Valentine

    Great point, not sure if V here is considering my range or not; as said before, I unfortunately had the "monsters under the bed" syndrome, when a nit raises preflop UTG, will be working on improving this moving forward.

    @Leath W

    Totally agree about capping my range, something that I need to study more of, and understand what this really means and how it affects my game etc. Also good point on what a potential underbet here could have done to the hand
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13 ✭✭
    You flatted MP v UTG, and called a flop bet on A99. You are perceived to have an ace. You have virtually zero 9 cards in your range. Since you look strong, and villain makes a ridiculously imbalanced play, he clearly as TT, or a random 9.

    Your 6 max range perception of villain is idiotic. Smarten up
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @connoram

    I'll ignore your poor social skills for a second and ask you some honest questions just in case you are more skilled than I. First, the CORE program on here, states that avg RFI ranges in 6max from UTG falls around 13% of hands...the avg 3bet from nitty players is with about 2.5% of hands...since villain opened, but didn't 3bet (but is also still a nit profile), than I decided meeting in the middle and tightening his range was sufficient based on again, his decision to raise pre 4x (something he only did twice in an hour) what range would you put a nit UTG villain on then? That's an honest question, I really would like to know how badly I may have messed up here.

    As far as my postflop suffering from my lack of 3betting QQ, well, that's been covered and I am happily making those adjustments. Perhaps you didn't know, but people actually come here for help friend (crazy I know)
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    connoram wrote: »
    Your 6 max range perception of villain is idiotic. Smarten up

    Your tone and vocabulary are not conducive to constructive criticism and learning. It's not how we play here. I would suggest reddit if you want to be snarky.

  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 941 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I
    GGECKO wrote: »
    I would have 3-bet your QQ, as you have a premium holding and are IP.
    .

    I disagree with everyone who thinks you should 3 bet here. He has a very tight range. He will continue with a very very tight range. It could be as tight as QQ ak possibly even tighter., and even if he continues with AK JJ+ . Put it another way are you happy if he folds to your 3 bet. Are you happy if he 4 bets you. Are you even happy if he calls your 3 bet OOP, which he really should never do hu 100 bb deep..

    Ed Miller i the course suggest 3 betting from EP (he includes HJ in early position) to be AA KK and A5s. Not saying this is correct, but its a good starting point. If you want to get more exploitive, it might include more suited aces or a hand like Ajo that blocks his big hands.... But QQ type hands I'm flatting.

    If you were OOP 3 betting would go up, but being IP makes flatting the better play IMO.

    Post flop his half pot looks like an Ace scared you have a 9. and a few of his week bluffs. It is probably not KK QQ JJ as he checks these back. He might check his Ace back but he is probably betting to see where he is at.

    On the turn I would expect him to check almost his entier range he bets on the flop. He giving up with his few bluffs. He wants pot control with his AK-AJ type hands, and even a hand as strong as AsKs he may check back not wanting you to blow him off his pair and draw with your 9.

    Could you take him off his hand betting the turn, and then jambing most rivers,? With AK type hand he has a way ahead way behind hand, and call you down if a spade does not hit the river. You also have showdown value so checking back to get to show down, might be the better line.

    On the river a nitty guy shoves, AsKs AsJs TT kind of fit how he plays. Bluffing the river with KhJh for a huge over bet is not in this kind of players description.





  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    @Eazzy

    Very interesting point about the AK hand being the way ahead or behind type especially on this type of board. I also felt that an appropriate larger raise preflop from EP undoubtedly indicated a range that I now just ran in Equilab. On the turn here, I have 19% equity going against a range of AJ+/JJ+ which is to say it would be less equity if villain drops JJ I would imagine.

    Also, I misspoke up there when I said 4bet, as well as x/r.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    I
    GGECKO wrote: »

    Ed Miller i the course suggest 3 betting from EP (he includes HJ in early position) to be AA KK and A5s. Not saying this is correct, but its a good starting point. If you want to get more exploitive, it might include more suited aces or a hand like Ajo that blocks his big hands.... But QQ type hands I'm flatting.

    So you would add in AJo but not QQ? A mediocre ace versus the 3rd best hand you can be holding? I have to disagree here, but this is why poker is such a fascinating game.

  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 941 ✭✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    Eazzy wrote: »
    I
    GGECKO wrote: »

    Ed Miller i the course suggest 3 betting from EP (he includes HJ in early position) to be AA KK and A5s. Not saying this is correct, but its a good starting point. If you want to get more exploitive, it might include more suited aces or a hand like Ajo that blocks his big hands.... But QQ type hands I'm flatting.

    So you would add in AJo but not QQ? A mediocre ace versus the 3rd best hand you can be holding? I have to disagree here, but this is why poker is such a fascinating game.

    The AJo is an exploitive (unbalanced) bluff here, (because it has lots of blockers), if his weakest hand is AJ and JJ then AJo should be fold or 3 bet as a bluff. 3 betting has higher EV then folding.

    QQ IP has ok equity against his range. lt has poor equity against his 4 bet range QQ+ AK. Even considering fold equity when you 3 bet, it has higher EV as a call then as a 3bet.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    I hear you. I'm mulling this over...

    Your point about AJ and blockers makes sense, but it is really a bluff? As a holding near top of the range matrix it would seem to border on a value bet as well.

    So if I am hearing you correctly, you would play QQ in LP...calling a raise behind you, and see what the flop brings before assessing. The call having higher EV than a 3 bet. I would think the QQ would deserve a 3-bet in LP, but I am going to try your line next session and see how it goes.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 394 ✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    I hear you. I'm mulling this over...

    Your point about AJ and blockers makes sense, but it is really a bluff? As a holding near top of the range matrix it would seem to border on a value bet as well.

    So if I am hearing you correctly, you would play QQ in LP...calling a raise behind you, and see what the flop brings before assessing. The call having higher EV than a 3 bet. I would think the QQ would deserve a 3-bet in LP, but I am going to try your line next session and see how it goes.

    Just assumes he's getting a run of Queens in LP on Friday... ;)
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    I hear you. I'm mulling this over...

    Your point about AJ and blockers makes sense, but it is really a bluff? As a holding near top of the range matrix it would seem to border on a value bet as well.

    So if I am hearing you correctly, you would play QQ in LP...calling a raise behind you, and see what the flop brings before assessing. The call having higher EV than a 3 bet. I would think the QQ would deserve a 3-bet in LP, but I am going to try your line next session and see how it goes.

    Just assumes he's getting a run of Queens in LP on Friday... ;)

    The quality of my cards must get better at some point because of maths and things.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Love this forum
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    I'm just soaking everything up and assessing
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13 ✭✭
    GGECKO wrote: »
    connoram wrote: »
    Your 6 max range perception of villain is idiotic. Smarten up

    Your tone and vocabulary are not conducive to constructive criticism and learning. It's not how we play here. I would suggest reddit if you want to be snarky.

    I agree. MY bad.
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