Few Decision Points 3 Betting 43s

Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Live Poker Hands
Game = 1/2 NLH 9 handed

Hero = ~430 in CO
Villain = ~600 in MP

V raises to 6 and gets one call from HJ. H raises to 20 with :4s :3s . V thinks for a minute and calls. Caller folds. Heads up to flop.

Flop (49)
:As :Tc :9s

V checks. Hero bets 25 and villain thinks before check raising to 67.

Hero??

Villains image is LAG reg. He plays aggressively in pots. 3 bets often pre-flop particularly out of BB. My opinion is he plays very well every time I've played with him. He's a tough opponent.

There's more to the hand in the spoiler.
Hero calls the raise.

Turn (183)
:As :Tc :9s :Jc

V bets 82. Hero??

I end up calling this. I was close in the moment to folding here but I felt I have some river bluffs as well as hitting my flush. But tbh I feel like I played it bad by just calling. Possibly I should be shoving the turn?

Comments

  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    34s out of my range, even in late position, especially against a tough opponent as you described. Sorry if it seems nitty, but if he gets sticky and I have only caught a piece of the board, it puts me in a weird position as we travel down the streets.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    While agreeing with @GGECKO about folding pre-flop, as-played, I'd be raising the flop.

    Sounds crazy, yes. But, if V is truly a LAG, then V has enough hands that can fold. If V just flat-calls, then you'll have one or even two opportunities to buy the pot on the turn and/or the river. And, if V shoves, then you have an easy fold. If you just flat-call the flop check-raise, then you'll almost definitely have to call the likely turn bet. Rather than calling the turn bet, I'd rather use that same money to fight back on the flop.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    This is actually a bad flop for you to c-bet on. Think about what hands can call a flop bet that V calls a 3-bet with? AQ? Yep. AK? Yep? KQ? Sure. KJ? Maybe. JJ? mmm. QQ? He may 4-bet you. KK? 4-bet. AA? 4-bet. 10's? He's got em. 99? He has em? Better FD's? Ye. Basically what i'm saying is that this board is actually pretty range neutral here 200 BB's deep. Sure, you retain AA and he doesn't. Weeeeeeeeeee. That's 3 combos that you have that are nutted that he doesn't have. Other than that...choose your c-bets wisely, especially against an opponent that will play back at you. Do you concede the pot if you check? No. Just like AK doesn't concede the pot, nor does AQ, ect. But what hands do you really have here that are 3 street value hands? Not many. And on this board, hand that smash the flop are going 2/3rd+ to charge draws, of which there are oh so many. 1/2 is smell like Ax. AK doesn't love playing for 200 bb's on this board.
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    @jfarrow13

    If I check back this flop am I not just capping my range at KK? I'm not even giving myself big drawing hands like KQs? By not betting flop I think he can eliminate all my top of the range hands as they would all bet this flop being draw heavy.
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    @moishetreats

    I thought calling his check raise was stronger than 3 betting the flop. It keeps my range open or am I wrong?

    Also if I 3 bet flop I nearly have to check back turn or shove turn which unless I hit I don't like doing. Is this wrong?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    @Aran Whelan Byrnehow did you spazz out and think 3b preflop 43s could be a good idea against a LAG, kind of player who likes to fight, and is "difficult to play against".
    What's your strategy here, bc to me it seems very spewy?!

    @GGECKO and @moishetreats : I won't fold here. We can hit the board nicely and we have poposition. Just calling creates a ~24SPR pot. This only 6$ (3BB) when we are 215BB deep makes it a call and "play poker" postflop. I'd but fold at 100-150BB eff.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats

    I thought calling his check raise was stronger than 3 betting the flop. It keeps my range open or am I wrong?

    Also if I 3 bet flop I nearly have to check back turn or shove turn which unless I hit I don't like doing. Is this wrong?

    If I can win the hand by re-raising the flop, then that's ideal.

    And, yes, there's a strong likelihood that you'll need to shove the turn (if you had aces, for instance, would you re-raise the flop only to check back the turn?).

    This is an aggressive and higher-variance play that is part of an overall range where you do this with enough made hands to generate fold equity from your semi-bluffs. Without that -- or if you're not ready for the variance -- then the solution is simple and obvious: fold pre-flop.

    Why? Because suited-connectors tend to play best when you can apply multiple streets of pressure on boards that favor you and have equity-when-called. But, as-is, they're nearly worthless unless they improve. By getting in the hand pre-flop, you're setting yourself up for this dynamic of play -- that's how suited-connectors are most powerful and profitable.

    If you aren't set up for that (either by your strategy, bankroll, or mindset), that's fine!! Just fold pre-flop :).
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    @Red

    Tbh at the time I was thinking that I hadn't 3b much all session, a bit of ego I guess as well and thinking I have a good solid image at the table and using that.

    Basically no good reason I guess. I need work on loads of stuff but don't have much time to play/study atm.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are at the bottom of the pole offering the merged price. It will lose money over and over.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    @Red

    Tbh at the time I was thinking that I hadn't 3b much all session, a bit of ego I guess as well and thinking I have a good solid image at the table and using that.

    Basically no good reason I guess. I need work on loads of stuff but don't have much time to play/study atm.

    I had a really rough September mostly because I didn't really have the time to play and study. I won't make that mistake again. If you don't have the time and can't be patient and make +EV decisions, stay off the felt.
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You are at the bottom of the pole offering the merged price. It will lose money over and over.

    Meaning?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Meaning you should look into it, apparently. Ranges have natural prices, and this one here is patently wrong.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    His range probably goes to the flop of stricty AQ+, and the best suited connected hands. This board is very well connected to him. I think he probably makes this move with gutshots, straight draws, best top pair combo. Against this range, your hand is very difficult to play. Reverse implied odds, as well as no SDV. Could fold to avoid big future mistakes, but a call is probably the play if rolled for the game correctly etc.
    edit: I'll also add that the Q, J, and Ks are missing in action. If the board was AsKs9d, then your hand would be MUCH more playable IMO
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    @Aran Whelan Byrne , no, checking AA on this board isn't a bad play. I mean, I'd bet it, personally, but it's not awful to check it here. Just because you retain 1 nut end hand in your range that V doesn't have doesn't mean it's time to barrel relentlessly cause he's just GOTTA give you credit for it. So here's what I think you should do.
    1st, give us a MP range V can open with. Then, give us a range that V can call you 3-bet with, given the price he's been given (lain?)(hint...I think almost his entire MP opening range can continue due to the price you've lain and stack sizes)
    Now, give us your 3-bet range here. Compare how each range hits this flop in flopzilla. Then think about what hands you want to bet and check, and why? Here you will have 2-3 types of hands...bets for equity denial, semi-bluffs with equity and bluffs that have minimal equity, yet block good holdings your opponent can have (if you want to have 0 bottom of range equity bluffs here, I don't mind that either), and hands that are checks, some that may be just complete check give ups, and some that are checks with good showdown value, or further improvement value.

    Next, the hands you are betting for equity denial, do you have any you fold to a raise? What about your semi-bluff equity hands?
    Do you have ANY hands in your 3-bet range that you want to immediately give up on this board with?


    There are a ton of considerations here, and all those questions...you can do it yourself, or just use a solver. But, at the very least, if you don't wanna commit that, think about having at the very least A. Hands that you bet for equity denial as well as hands that are semi-bluffs that have good equity and B. Hands that have showdown value, but don't really stand up to a raise well, or hands that can stand to improve, but don't want to see a raise.



    To me, I A. Am not 3-betting 43...and not at this price. You really don't have the FE there to make this a profitable play at that price (V needs to call $14 to win like $35 ($49 after his call). And on the flop...43ss falls into my hands that I want to just try to improve with on the turn. This board just has so many draws and hit a calling range so hard, I just don't see you generating the folds required with a flop bet, and your equity just is weak. You gonna go broke trying to barrel this to death, or your gonna get c/r and get blown off the equity you do have.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    His range probably goes to the flop of stricty AQ+

    I don't think so. He only needs to call $14 more to win $49 so he only needs 28% equity here to even justify a call. This means even if he's playing a range of 22+, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo, JTo MP opens (he may be wider or more snug, but that's 20% of hands opening range, he can call...almost his entire range there lol. (AA/KK might 4-bet). Anyways, I wouldn't give him AQ+...that's so snug, and this guy is a LAG.
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    "Red wrote: »
    @GGECKO and @moishetreats : I won't fold here. We can hit the board nicely and we have poposition. Just calling creates a ~24SPR pot. This only 6$ (3BB) when we are 215BB deep makes it a call and "play poker" postflop. I'd but fold at 100-150BB eff.

    This is where I think your calculation is wrong. We cannot hit the board nicely...at all. Unless we catch very few combos, we are dead in the water before the battle has begun. If we were discussing 98s, 87s, or even 76s, we have a much better hand to fight with. IF the opponent was more taggy, then maybe a call/raise and then bet OTF hoping he misses the flop would be a nice line.

    Basically, I meant what @persuadeo said...except he uses cooler vocabulary.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    GGECKO wrote: »
    "Red wrote: »
    @GGECKO and @moishetreats : I won't fold here. We can hit the board nicely and we have poposition. Just calling creates a ~24SPR pot. This only 6$ (3BB) when we are 215BB deep makes it a call and "play poker" postflop. I'd but fold at 100-150BB eff.

    This is where I think your calculation is wrong. We cannot hit the board nicely...at all. Unless we catch very few combos, we are dead in the water before the battle has begun. If we were discussing 98s, 87s, or even 76s, we have a much better hand to fight with. IF the opponent was more taggy, then maybe a call/raise and then bet OTF hoping he misses the flop would be a nice line.

    Basically, I meant what @persuadeo said...except he uses cooler vocabulary.

    To me 43s hits the board nicely 24% of the time: with 2P (be wary on paired board tho), trips, straight, flush, boat and quads, plus FD, OESD and combo draws.
    Edit: we hit gutshot 15% of the time, but this is too weak to be a "nice hit" as we can't expect anything else (no draw to a TP for ex as would be T9s on 765)


    When we hit a strong hand (esp. with 2P and trips), we will be concealed and be to call his c-bet and raise for value easily, thanks to position.
    When we hit a FD, we retain a lot of equity (for ex. 4s3s has 24% equity against QcQd on Qh9s6s) and can play easily based on pot odds/equity + position.

    Also we are playing against a LAG. This means Villain has more air. Hitting a pair with 3 or 4 already gives us SDV as well sometimes, when this won't be the case against a TAG or a NIT.

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