Cooler flush with a gutter

DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Live Poker Hands
Looking for critique again, I'm noticing that I'm vastly weak on my turn plays for starters:

Game: 50NL Zone 6Max
Hero: $48.60--BB-- :Qs:Ts

Preflop: Folds to villain, villian limps, folds to hero, hero calls to a HU pot
Pot: $1.25

Flop: :4s:8s:2d
Hero bets 1/2 pot (0.62), villain calls

At this point since it's Zone I don't have any knowledge on villain, it's a limped pot, so I feel that villain's range can be full of trash etc. Because of that, I feel that villain will continue after a 1/2 pot bet with any overcards, any 2 spades, and any pocket pairs, possibly even TP. Quite honestly I find difficulty in hand-reading an opponent that limps

Turn: :9c
Hero bets 2/3 pot (1.66), villain calls

I just turned a gutter, and still have a FD going, so I count myself having 12 outs to the river here giving me roughly 24% equity. I felt the 2/3 pot bet will allow villain to let go of the trash here, and keep all drawing spade hands in, as well as any sets, and possibly 2 overcards/TP
Is that 40% of villain's limping range though (due to the BE math from a 2/3 pot)? Not sure..

River: :7s
Hero jams, villain calls showing :Ks:9s

Not sure if my jam on the river was OK. I'm also not sure how I feel about me leading out each street, in addition to wondering about my turn play. Time to tear this apart!


  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Three things jump out to me instantly:

    1. Why did you not raise preflop? You state that you have a hard time reading an opponent who limps; why allow them to limp? If you raise to 3-4x here you get a lot of information. I think this was a good spot to punish a limper.

    2. Why bet the flop? And if you are going to bet it, why only 1/2 pot? That's a really small bet in terms of actual money. It gives V great odds to continue on a flush draw or with overs. I would knock this sizing up a tad (and I would love to get feedback myself here on whether this is even reasonable feedback). I am probably betting 2/3 pot here, maybe even a touch more to try to grab the pot here.

    3. No jam. Why jam? Do you get called by worse hands? Probably not. Reasonably, what did that 7 do for V if he didn't also make a flush? It could have filled a straight, I suppose, but I think you're getting called my better flushes here when you jam. You gave V a great chance to walk away from K9 of hearts, diamonds, or clubs, ya know? When you jammed here, I think you were only getting called by hands that beat you, the occasional straight and the occasional J/T high flush. My two cents.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    First allow me to correct a HUGE mistake in this post, I actually didn't jam here, I actually bet 1.5x pot. I jammed on another hand in 5NL because I was messing around; and got the two confused since I was posting about that other hand as well...unfortunately, I was posting this when I first go into work..lesson here is to not multi-task before coffee. However, even with betting 1.5x, I feel your point is still quite valid, which hands are going to get called here. With villain calling me down, and limping, he did a great job in masking his hand.

    I bet 1/2 pot to get some money in the middle, while allowing villain to continue with trash in his range. With not having any knowledge on villain, I assumed that since he limped, a larger cbet OTF would either push him off completely, or get the nuts only for continuance (I used "nuts" here to describe basically any hand that beats me)

    I didn't raise preflop, because the general consensus from my other post on here about playing almost this exact hand in BB, was in a sense, not to do it at the option I have left is to call to the flop.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Yeah I think 1.5x is still too large but better than a jam!

    On the flop bet, you don't want V continuing with trash: you want him continuing with hands you beat. Right now, what hands is V going to continue with that you are currently beating.J J9? Q9? T9? Doesn't he raise these hands sometimes in CO? (I know this V probably doesn't given he limped K9s but just for sake of argument), what worse hands does V realistically hold that you can currently beat and want him to continue with?

    And what trash hands did he limp anyway? Maybe he limped 67? 56? These aren't trash as they have the straight draw out there (and aren't trash anyway). I don't see much 'trash' in his range that he would continue with so I think he's either hit this board or has some overs, so he's going to continue with a big chunk of his range IMO.

    You don't have any showdown value at the moment and I don't really see a ton of hands V would continue with that you currently beat. So I would probably check this board.

    And on the preflop raise, it seems an easy 3-4x raise here, try to take his BB and move on. I will let others comment here.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    Thanks again, great info to take with me! Trash to me in this spot is not suited connectors, so I completely agree with you. Trash to me would be hands like J4o, K3s, Q7o, not saying this was his range for this specific board, but more that when I think of "trash" in ranges, I think of hands that I just mentioned. However, again, you made a great point about what he's really continuing with here. As far as my preflop play, trust me it was very tempting to raise it haha...learning as I go my friend.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    When in doubt, apply pressure. He's limping. Your QT suited is going to be ahead of a cutoff limp a large portion of the time given that they should be raising a wider range as is.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    You actually did get a bit of info on the villain. He open limped the CO, which is unconventional and passive. Is there way for us to better verify that passivity pre-flop? @Jordan Power was right on about you allowing him to play the range you struggle with.

    I like the format of laying out the hand with your thoughts. Just consider saving the results for later as you will get better replies. It also helps the readers improve by trying to work out villains range without the result.

    Just touching on the turn since you mentioned it specifically. Before betting the turn, did you have a plan for facing a raise? And the big one... what is your river plan for the 76% (your calculation) of the time you miss? What do you do when X card hits? This is soooooo crucial to your hand review. If you don’t do it upon review, you’ll never work this into your play.

    You’re barreling here. But there are some key barreling needs that you aren’t meeting -
    - initiative
    - opponent type (if he’s a passive/station then not a good bluff candidate)
    - a good idea of your opponents range
    - how each range hits this board
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭

    I agree, I at the time, felt it was an error to allow CO to name the price that we see the flop with. As a result from a previous post of mine where I was in the BB with Q9s in 6max, the general consensus on here (if I recall correctly, will go back and re-read it), was to not play cute with these types of hands in EP.

    Thank you for the tip on hiding the results, I will make that adjustment moving forward.To answer your question about my river plan, I had one, but as of now it was the wrong one. If my math was incorrect on my odds to the river I will happily take critique on that as well.

    I will say this about SDV and or river play: The CORE program on here suggests that if we have marginal SDV, it's advised to bluff when OOP and check while IP. That's an obvious oversimplification here, but from what I gathered, we check/bluff when either choice seems profitable over the other. Here I would think that had I re-played this, I would have to consider what villain's continuance range would be after a 1/2, 2/3 pot bet and so on based on the BE math of those bet sizes. Is that correct for me to be thinking about in general?

    This morning I learned that SDV is defined as when we have a hand that is too weak to bet for value, but strong enough to be ahead of some portion of villain's range..if we go by that definition, I would believe that my hand is ahead of some of villain's range here. Again, I could be wrong.

    Finally, I agree completely that bluffing into calling stations is never a recommended line to take; this is where I need to continue studying gauging whether or not I'm truly bluffing/semi bluffing, and or truly showing up at the river with some SDV. This is in addition to me continuously learning about how different flop textures connect with my range vs my opponent's range.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    What is 'cute' about raising on the BB when a CO has decided to limp (signalling he's not strong)? That's not a 'cute' play to me. CO signalled weakness and you know you have a problem playing against limpers: don't let them limp. I don't think it's a cute play; I would have a pretty wide range to raise in this spot.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    That's exactly what I was thinking here and then in the other hand! The brakes of being a neurotic over-thinker and a beginner in a thinking game...sometimes does not make for the best recipe..
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    @Deadlifts Well the fact that you're thinking at all is a start. Most players aren't thinking. I'm not a good player by any means but a little thought in a hand goes a long way. Keeps me out of obvious mistakes that other players make constantly. It's a process. Are you enrolled in CORE? I don't work for RCP but I sing its praises. Worth it.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power

    CORE is where I gain most of my thought process from. I'm currently making my way through level 2 as we speak. Sources like RCP Forums, 2+2, FB etc. are places that I go to analyze my hands, and look at others alike, read the comments and responses to see gather more and more information as I go. Thinking of Sweeney's 1% program after, or his 1/2 workbook
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Deadlifts wrote: »
    @Jordan Power

    That's exactly what I was thinking here and then in the other hand! The brakes of being a neurotic over-thinker and a beginner in a thinking game...sometimes does not make for the best recipe..

    I won't project my "overthinking" deficiencies on you, but I have found when I overthink I only see hands in his range he can beat me with and that usually forces a fold on my part. Those who "overthink" in a different way sometimes only see the bluffs and hands you can beat. Its the experience and study that start paying off when you can balance those correctly.

    I have also found that The Course is a great complimentary book to CORE and other materials on here - FYI.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭

    Definitely can see how over-thinking can typically migrate to one end of the spectrum. Are you speaking of Ed Miller's book? If so, I have heard nothing but great things regarding how valuable it is; sounds like the next buy for my poker studies
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Deadlifts wrote: »

    Definitely can see how over-thinking can typically migrate to one end of the spectrum. Are you speaking of Ed Miller's book? If so, I have heard nothing but great things regarding how valuable it is; sounds like the next buy for my poker studies

    I am. It's well worth it.

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