AA 4 bet or all-in

John ValentineJohn Valentine Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
You are on the button, holding AA.
Preflop...there is a bet.
Than a raise.
A second raise, and a third raise.
A min. 4th raise would cost you less than half your stack. Let's say 40 %.
Do you 4 bet or go all-in? Why.


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭✭
    Flat 100%. Whatever is your action, it's a commitment to play for stacks. Either by raising or calling (tiny SPR). Flatting is better as you don't scare low PP behind you. Also if everybody is raising like that, the chance that there are only flatting after you are really small. Villain are going to thrown their chips preflop anyway.

    But this is not an interesting question. This never happen. Be me concerned about what to do with AA after a bet and a 3bet before you: cold call or cold 4bet ? This is a more realistic situation.
  • DPokerTDPokerT Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Generally, my line here would be to raise to 50-60 BB (assuming 100BB stacks), hoping to induce shoves from 2nd and 3rd raisers. Or if its a real loose table, just shove myself. In general with AA im always trying to get as much in pre-flop as possible.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm shoving.

    Going multi-way, IMO, is the least desirable option. +EV? Absolutely. Optimal? No way. As more and more players enter the pot, your relative pot odds diminish. You want to be heads-up, ideally, especially given the dead money in the pot.

    Moreover, if everyone folds, that is, IMO, faaaaar better than everyone calling. There is already a ton of dead money in the pot, and I'd gladly take it with a 100% chance of keeping it all.

    In other words, I'd have no problem with everyone getting it in -- I have a good shot at a big pot. But, I don't think that's optimal.

    (Note: You didn't mention the stack sizes of the other players. That could affect my decision.)

    And, no, this is not fear of variance. :)
  • RickBlackdogRickBlackdog Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    If you're not shoving AA, what are you shoving? I agree with the comment that many callers the odds diminish but a few of them will fold to an all in. Likelihood of others going against you will be KK, and you've 85% on that (right?) - but assuming there are AKs in your callers, you're blocking a lot of their outs to improve.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats : why do you want anybody to fold preflop when you hold AA ? I wish I can grab them by the chips preflop and go all-in preflop for several stacks. AA retains a ton of equity when you add more Villains, when other holdings will quickly loose equity.
    If you shove and make 99, AJo, or similar holding fold when they would have come along for stacks preflop, you're letting money on the table and aren't maxEV.
    (I but can't make calculation now since I'm at work and leaving tonight for the weekend)

    Yeah, playing postflop MW would be dicey, but except if we are playing super duper deep, any action of us is commitment to play for stack - which should happen easily in such (unrealistic) scenario. So whatever the board it is, we should already have set. up that we continue postflop.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    The action and stack depths are both unclear. Maybe we should clear that up. What exactly is a "bet" here? Once we get that figured out and what the raise sizes are, we can talk more intelligently about it. If you think that's pedantic, I've seen plenty of games where people are goofing around with each other, min raising, some wanting to "build a pot", and some wanting to "see a flop cheaply".
  • ChipFluxChipFlux Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    I’m shoving. I think anything less than shove actually screams the strength of your hand. 3rd raiser (cold 4 bet, you are 5 betting) should be strong enough to call. And depending on player types, I don’t want to get flatted in 3 or 4 spots when I have to essentiality call off on all flops anyway given spr. And maybe I’m way too nitty, but I’m easy folding QQ and sigh ripping KK knowing somebody else has the bullets given action.

    For clarity, my interpretation of action is limp, raise, reraise, reraise, action pending to hero on button.

    This could be one of those uber sick hands where it gets in 3 ways and it’s AA v AA v KK. I’m assuming this is live 1/2 or 1/3? That and the stack sizes would help the discussion.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ChipFlux wrote: »
    This could be one of those uber sick hands where it gets in 3 ways and it’s AA v AA v KK.

    On a tangent, I just looked this up. Usually odd things happen when you combine multiple hands, and the probabilities change differently than you'd think. In this case, it's almost exactly the same. The ~80% that AA has over KK heads up is split up and it's 40/40/20. This is a little odd because while most of the equity for KK relies on hitting a set, I always assumed part of the 80% for AA relied on hitting a set as well, but without the other 2 aces, it's not possible. In a hand calculator, pit AA against KK, but make the other 2 aces dead. It only changes 3%. Weird.

    At least you don't lose as much this way when you have KK! With $100 stacks you're -$60 against AA, but against AA and AA you're only -$40.

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