3bet bluffs

accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
Ok, a 3bet question. I'm trying to add in 3bet bluffs, specifically A5s. I'm very hesitant to 3bet this oop. What is the consensus on this type of play? Obviously I want to target players with a gold button, but should it be better implemented ip? What other considerations are suggested? Post flop, I'm looking to pair one, back door flush draws and straight draws. Thank you.

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 149 ✭✭
    So your position on the table is going to make it harder to 3-bet sometimes. When you say OOP, do you mean from the blinds, mostly? Because if an UTG raises and you're in MP with multiple players behind you to act, a 3-bet here with anything but QQ+, AK seems like a bad idea. However, if you're in BB and you have an open-raiser in cutoff or something, a 3-bet with A5s can certainly be included in your range.

    The major factors here that I am considering are who is Villain: is he folding to 3-bets? Is he weak postflop? Will he 4-bet me? If he's a tight player who is absolutely willing to 4-bet his premium hands, not a great time to be 3-betting IMO. But if V is opening too wide, sure, hammer him. But be willing to size correctly. 3x plus 1x per caller on the initial raise. It can really tip your hand if you take a 15 raise in 1/3 to just 40 with 2 people already calling the initial raise. So pay attention to sizing and be consistent on that for your premium 3-bet hands and your bluffs.

    Second, who am I? Do I rep a credible hand here or does the table view me as so loose that I am inviting taking A5 multiway in a 3-bet pot?

    Third, what is my plan postflop when I hit? What is my plan post flop when I miss?
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    I guess ideally I want to 3bet in position. The games I play see less than 5 3bets in a 6-8 hour session, so I want to take advantage of them. I'm seen as a pretty tight player there I think.

    The sizing I'd use would probably be at least 4x, so in our games a standard open is 12$ to 16$ (1/2$). I'm targeting only a couple ppl there with fold buttons. (Most are stations that can't fold QQ to 3 streets with an over card on the flop. :/)

    My post flop play would be to c-bet most flops and continue based on my equity on the turn.

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 209 ✭✭✭
    As @Jordan Power mentioned, the amount of hands you 3-bet really varies dependent upon the villain's position as well as yours.

    Think about how wide a standard villain is opening from the button. Now think about what this means when you're in the big blind. If you don't want to just hand him free money, you need to defend against his opens fairly frequently.

    Of course, if you're going to defend by just calling, then you're going to the flop out of position with a weak range and just asking him to pick up an even larger pot from you on the flop. Now, if you defend with an occasional 3-bet, he may just fold preflop giving you a free pot, or he may call but now you've got a strong range going to the flop with a fighting chance of picking up the pot.

    There's also more incentive to 3-bet more when V is in the cutoff and H is on the button. Because again, villain's range is wide, but this time we have position on him, so 3-betting can put his weaker range in a tough spot. If you compare these situations to a villain opening from UTG, obviously that is a less attractive spot to put in a raise because his range is already much tighter, so we do not need to defend against his steals and the bluff raise will have less success because he will be folding less of his range.
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Because if an UTG raises and you're in MP with multiple players behind you to act, a 3-bet here with anything but QQ+, AK seems like a bad idea.

    Out of curiosity, where did you come across this information or how did you you calculate it from a mathematical perspective?

    Personally, I consider 3-betting so tightly to be exploitable through folding, and mass database analysis shows very strong players 3-bet wider than 2-3% of hands MP versus EP profitably. Could you address that differential?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 149 ✭✭
    I'm approaching this two ways:

    1) EP if he's a decent player has a tighter range opening from UTG
    2) There are people behind me who are yet to act and in this abstract example where I know nothing about my opponents, I am going to 3 bet with only premium hands.

    But I am approaching this in an abstract position. And I am also not a strong player lol.
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited October 27
    Pro tip: the biggest mistake people make facing any aggression is to play too passively and allow you to realize too much equity, especially in position. 3-betting such a narrow range doesn't fully take advantage of that. Try creating some equations of doomsday scenarios, and you'll find it's very, very hard to find 3-betting lines where you you're not profiting by 3-betting say, AQo.

    If you look at AQo by itself MP v UTG, a 3bet might make little sense. As part of a complete linear reraising strategy, it's fantastic.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    So, you're saying 3bet a wider range? Obviously that sounds scary, but I feel I should almost be trading raw equity for playability if I'm up against a stronger range (like I would be at my game). They limp QJ suited and K 10o and J 10s.

    Please elaborate more. I'm interested, but not following 100%.

    I'm not hesitant doing that. I'm just hesitant doing it in the couple games I play. Everyone is just so passive even with decently good hands. I just feel like my 3bets, unless nearer to the top of my range, are crushed.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding combos to your 3bet range doesn't mean anything. A 3bet - like any other of your action - should fit a strategy as a whole. Put chips in the middle without a clear plan, a calculated reason, and you can only make mistakes. A 0% 3bet range is as powerful as a 80% 3bet range when you know why you're doing it.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 228 ✭✭
    edited October 30
    I'm very hesitant to 3bet this oop.

    Would you be more confident to call a raise from BB with A5s? You're also going to be OOP. But now you're going to be without initiative. By 3-betting you take the initiative AND you don't even see a flop all the time (at least, that's the point). Something to think about. (Roughly paraphrasing Mike Gano here)
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    I suppose I would be more confident calling a raise in the BB oop. But I think it's because there are a lot of limp/callers in 1/2$.

    If there's a raise to 15$ and I 3bet to 60$ when I'm 100bb deep, I'm in stack off mode with a 1 SPR.

    It's just not a spot I feel comfortable with. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel like I'm generating enough folds.

    If Doug Hull thinks I should try it, I will. Lol
    And I'll be mindful of not being results oriented.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭
    I suppose I would be more confident calling a raise in the BB oop. But I think it's because there are a lot of limp/callers in 1/2$.
    Because you don't bet big enough to hit their pain threshold
    It's just not a spot I feel comfortable with.
    Then you know what to study and improve ;)

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,162 -
    We had quite a good pod a while back on 3-betting and why it shouldn't be scary: https://redchippoker.com/3-betting-blinds-shouldnt-scary/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 149 ✭✭
    I worked on 3 betting for an entire month, devoting much of my study to pre flop play and specifically spots to 3 bet without premium hands. It improved my win rate dramatically. People fold way too much to a 3 bet so it becomes profitable to do it a lot more often!

    It also frustrates the heck out of people at lower limits which is frankly entertaining.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Oh thank you for all the feedback. I think I'm gonna try that also Jordan... 3 betting without the top 10% of hands in good spots.

    I tried it the other day with J 10s, but I can't be results oriented lol.

    Run out was 10 10 4 9 10. Made a large bet on river. Villain folded A9s face up saying I had Jacks down... so he put me on a stronger range than what I had. The only thing I took from that is to C bet large if they're giving me that much credit.

    Thanks again. And I will definitely listen to that podcast. I'll post my 3bet results from this coming Sunday.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 149 ✭✭
    Good luck! There was a CORE exercise (or maybe it was a podcast recommendation) about finding spots to 3-bet blind. You don't actually have to do it, just before you look at your cards, think about whether its a good idea based on who's raising, position, etc., to 3 bet. Helped me a lot just making the thought process normal. Sometimes its just so easy to call when if you thought about it for 10 seconds you would realize you should be 3-betting it.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    We had quite a good pod a while back on 3-betting and why it shouldn't be scary: https://redchippoker.com/3-betting-blinds-shouldnt-scary/

    I read it, but I play in 3 home-type games where stealing from late position is rare. These are limp fest games and in the beginning of the article, it said to "put the brakes on" if I believe that villain has a wide limping range meaning raises are more for value vs late position steals.

    I'm not saying that it never comes up in our game because it does, but very rarely. I will, however look for these opportunities. :)

    Sunday night 6pm mountain we're playing. Hopefully not Omaha 8 or better, but if it's short we will. (5 or less)
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9
    Continuity error:
    I'm trying to add in 3bet bluffs

    I play in 3 home-type games [which] are limp fest games...

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