Correct play ???

giorgos pgiorgos p Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
Live casino 1/2

Hero mp (400) opens :8h:7h 8
4 calls 3 fishes 1 tight old man

Flop :Kh:Qh:8s

Sb leads 12 (120) loose fish
Utg calls tight fish
Hero raise 45
Fold
Fold
Sb fold
Utg shoves 130
Hero calls
Utg :Kc:8d

Comments

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    The ole overvalue the pair + FD play huh? Let's run some numbers real quick. So let's say donk fish leads with a range of, dumb Qx, Kx, FD's, OESD, and FD's.
    MP2 50.35% 50.35% 0.01% 8h7h
    MP3 49.65% 49.64% 0.01% KJs-K9s, Q9s+, JhTh, Ah9h, Jh9h, Th9h, Ah8h, Kh8h, Qh8h, Jh8h, 9h8h, Ah7h, Jh7h, Th7h, 9h7h, 8h7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KJo-KTo, K8o, QTo+, Q8o, JTo

    79 hands he's likely to lead with. Look at the equity. Do you love your raise still?

    Now once you raise, el loose fish gives up his Kx pairs and his Qx pairs, but never folds his OESD and FD's, and 2 pairs or sets. He might not even fold some of his good Kx hands that have BD SD opportunities, cause loose fish stuff.

    MP2 51.07% 51.06% 0.01% 8h7h
    MP3 48.93% 48.92% 0.01% KJs-KTs, AhTh, JhTh, Ah9h, Jh9h, Th9h, Ah8h, Kh8h, Qh8h, Jh8h, 9h8h, Ah7h, Jh7h, Th7h, 9h7h, 8h7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KJo-KTo, K8o, Q8o,


    Roughly the same equity, 54 hands, folds 25 hands, so he folds 31% of the time, you pick up the $44, DECENT, but when you raise, $45, you 1/2 pot, he needs to call 33% of the time, which he can with his big draws, pairs, ect, and he can shove over top of your re-raise like he did with a certain % of equity hands that are crushing you.


    This play is about break even IMO, and bad news bears when he shoves over top of your 3-bet. So ask yourself, is there a better way to play? Sure, he can't have super strong hands like KQ, AK, KK or QQ, and you block 88. But against loose fish, where there may not be as much FE as you need to make this play EV...your taking a hand with SD value, but can also improve, and your banking of FE here to pull you into the black. To me, I'd rather not raise hands that have SDV AND improvement value. I'd rather raise hands that have minimal SDV, but improvement value. And sets / top 2, to deny his heart equity. Or you can play poker, not be afraid of him "drawing out on you", and play IP, which this hand does nicely.

  • Leath WLeath W Red Chipper Posts: 53 ✭✭
    connoram wrote: »
    Fold pre

    Why? You'll get a lot of callers live, hero is deep (no info on effective stacks though), this is a perfect holding to see a flop MW.
    I would certainly not raise here as the SB signals a lot of strength and we're drawing to a non-nutted hand but it's still a good flop for us and I'd certainly call and see a turn.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    giorgos p wrote: »
    Live casino 1/2

    Hero mp (400) opens :8h:7h 8
    4 calls 3 fishes 1 tight old man

    Flop :Kh:Qh:8s

    Sb leads 12 (120) loose fish
    Utg calls tight fish
    Hero raise 45
    Fold
    Fold
    Sb fold
    Utg shoves 130
    Hero calls
    Utg :Kc:8d

    How are other "fish" ? Are you that better than them ?
  • Leath WLeath W Red Chipper Posts: 53 ✭✭
    @Red I'm curious why you disagreed. Can you please elaborate? Is 87s too weak to open from MP? In a 6-max game it would be at the bottom of my O-range. I've never played live, do you usually play full ring there?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    @Leath W I disagree about this part, both on SB strength, H strength and flop texture.
    Leath W wrote: »
    connoram wrote: »
    Fold pre
    I would certainly not raise here as the SB signals a lot of strength and we're drawing to a non-nutted hand but it's still a good flop for us and I'd certainly call and see a turn.
  • Leath WLeath W Red Chipper Posts: 53 ✭✭
    @Red Why?
    I would consider a bet made into 4 opponents a pretty strong play. Multiway we want to have a strong 5-card hand and we're getting a good price for calling. Not sure what you mean by disagreeing with H strength because we don't have a made hand yet and I just said that our flush can still be beaten by a better one. We're stilll dominated by hands Like AhXh and a few JhXh combos like JT and J9, as well as Th9h which is another reason I don't like the raise because we're kinda deep with close to 150 BB effective.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    Leath W wrote: »
    @Red Why?
    I would consider a bet made into 4 opponents a pretty strong play. Multiway we want to have a strong 5-card hand and we're getting a good price for calling.
    Such kind of weak lead - V is betting 12 into 42$ or 1/4 pot bet - are (at least live) very often made by a bad Villain with a marginal hand trying to see where is it at. Regularly you see TPWK there. It's to probe the strength of their opponents' hands - a raise make them fold very often.
    Also don't see it as a bet against X players; they play their hand, not a range, a position or the table. Only their 2 cards.
    Leath W wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean by disagreeing with H strength because we don't have a made hand yet and I just said that our flush can still be beaten by a better one. We're still dominated by hands Like AhXh and a few JhXh combos like JT and J9, as well as Th9h which is another reason I don't like the raise because we're kinda deep with close to 150 BB effective.
    Don't look at "we have only a weak pair", look at the equity of the hand as a whole.
    Play different scenarii and see how 9h8h does against TPnK, KQ, 88, AhTh etc. Now let me know how much equity H does have.

    Also don't forget that some hands aren't here. Would a tight Villain give action with JT no :HEART: here ? Would SB weak donk with J9 ? Are these villains able to understand the strong equity of a (combo) draw or do they stick on made hands ?

    Finally, don't forget you're not only playing against one hand, but against one range. You should do good against the range your target. (One step further: ... with the range you're playing.)
  • Leath WLeath W Red Chipper Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Thanks for the elaboration, I see what you mean now.
  • giorgos pgiorgos p Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    @Red thank for your replies ,let’s talk about the fishes ,the sb is a fishy maniac on tilt (short stack) the utg guy is a tight old man who calls from utg with 140 effective with K8 off as a tight label the other two guys buy ins for 80 dollars...now for the play from utg I can’t find a hand in his calling range on the flop ( we know that the maniac in the sb pushes buttons all the time ) with 2.4 spr which I can’t find fold equity ....
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I strongly doubt about your observation skills on Villains. A "tight" player doesn't play K8o - does not even limp it.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @giorgos p: What is a "loose fish" and a "tight fish"?

    And how does K8o fit into the profile of a "tight fish"? Or is your profile off after having seen UTG's hand?
  • giorgos pgiorgos p Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    I mean the same thing with you ...how it is possible a player to call with K8 off from utg and not be a fish ....all the night plays only premium and wake up in me in this spot because it’s 5 way and this flop isn’t dry enough for utg play to call this hand ....@moishetreats loose fish is a guy who play more vpip than regular and he can’t play postflop correctly in the average tight fish is the guy who plays only monster and premium and can’t extract all the value from his hand
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    giorgos p wrote: »
    I mean the same thing with you ...how it is possible a player to call with K8 off from utg and not be a fish ....all the night plays only premium and wake up in me in this spot because it’s 5 way and this flop isn’t dry enough for utg play to call this hand ....@moishetreats loose fish is a guy who play more vpip than regular and he can’t play postflop correctly in the average tight fish is the guy who plays only monster and premium and can’t extract all the value from his hand

    Not to get too caught up in language, but I think that it's important here: Is UTG tight (i.e., "who plays only... premium") or a fish?

    Depending on which one, I'd respond differently on the flop. Or, more accurately, depending on which of the two you thought he was at the time...
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    ma man, jake @jfarrow13

    dropping some knowledge in the forums!
    you've come a long way, bud.

    well said, sir. well said!
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    UTG flats with K8o...

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