looking for alternative lines or thoughts on this AJs hand

Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
Hi All,

I have been plugging away at core for the summer and starting to get some time at the local casinos (summer is a busy time)

I played this hand yesterday and would like some alternative viewpoints at a couple different points. I will stop the post at the first point.

1/2 NL game
10 handed

Hero is utg 2 with 625
Villain 1 in on button-covers
Villain 2 is in BB and has about 105

Villain 1 has been solid for the 4 hours we have been playing, Is on the aggressive side Shows the willingness to make big bets (pot size plus) on turn and river and hasnt had to show most of these down. Once big river bet was a total bluff with missed draws and another time it was top two. I respect his play.

Villain 2 is TAGish and doesn't get involved much

Hero has been pretty tight, but only show winners most of the session.

Hero opens to 10 with AJs in UTG2.
Folds to villain 1 on button who flats
Villain 2 also calls in BB

Pot $30
flop 8h 6s 2h
Checks to hero who bets 25.
Both players call.

Pot is $105
turn is Tc
Villian 2 (BB) jams for 70

Hero?



Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    are your cards :Ah:Jh ?
    do you always raise $10 pre from EP?
    do you always get multiple callers when you raise from EP?
    how often do you c-bet?
    how often do you c-bet into multiple players?
    what range do you put the other 2 players on?
    why are you betting flop?
    what hands are you targeting with your c-bet?
    what hands do you think you're representing on the flop?
    ....
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    :Ah:Jh

    do you always raise $10 pre from EP?
    At this table this was my size for all my opens. I like to keep my opening sizes pretty similar. It was about in the middle of the range for other players. Some were opening 7, some opening 15.

    do you always get multiple callers when you raise from EP?
    No. This day i was getting alot of folds or one player to the flop.

    how often do you c-bet?
    Pretty situation dependent, but pretty consistently this day.

    how often do you c-bet into multiple players?
    dont have an answer. I would say about 75% of the time I will CBET, but its a guesstimate and depends a lot of how many callers, board texture, etc

    what range do you put the other 2 players on?.
    The BB was otherwise pretty tight, but in the BB with one caller and against two big stacks , I put him on suited down to 67, AJo+, 22+
    The button was pretty loose. I put him on 45s+, 22+, AJo, A2s+ KQo+

    why are you betting flop? i guess I figured I had 2 overs and flush draw and that was the best play compared to check calling. I didnt consider check folding.

    what hands are you targeting with your c-bet? good point because this board hit their range a lot more than it hit mine.
    what hands do you think you're representing on the flop? TT+

    So if I am understanding the point of your questions, My early PF raising range is face-up, there ranges are much wider, the flop hit their ranges much harder than mine so cbetting isnt necessarily the best play.

    so I CBET almost pot and got called in two spots.

    check/call if +EV, ......fold if not?




  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From your answers - this looks like this is a somewhat standard spot in your game (and some good thinking went into your actions)

    There are several things at play here:
    1.) If we're repping TT+, then that would mean that BB should have 2-pair+ or better, no? So we're looking at a range of 97, T8, 88, 66, 22.
    2.) If BB's range is so tight - we're not getting the right price to call
    3.) a dude who covers us (V1) has position and can re-open the betting if we call BB's bet.

    I agree with your assessment that the flop hits Vs' calling ranges more than ours.
    Also that our pot-ish sized flop bet called by TWO villains is troubling.

    Let's consider the weakest part of BB's range that's not 2-pair+...
    Hands that make the most sense to me (based on limited information) would be:
    9x8x, :Th:9h , :Qh:Th, :7h:6h .... geez, that seems about it.
    We block :Jh:Th and :Ah:Th . (two strong contenders for this board)
    But BB could have a TX hand that includes a J or A that's not a :heart
    So, if V is semi bluffing... he's probably got at least a pair, right?
    Although it's possible that he could have :Qh:9h.
    possible... but not probable...

    so against 2-pair+... we're like 16%, against pair + draw... we're like 33%
    But it seems to me that against a player that's:
    TAGish and doesn't get involved much
    I would think his range probably on the strong side...
    (I don't like guys like this who call pre from oop... this should have been a warning sign that should have informed our flop action)

    Going back to the flop:
    we got jack
    we're multi-way
    we got nitty in the BB
    we don't need to "protect" our hand (against flush draws)

    we have 3 options here: bet, check & check/raise
    Which one I use would depend on the situation.
    Being that we got 2 callers where we normally get one - I think taking a standard line of betting our draw is the worse of the three...
    (NOTE: not "wrong"... but simple not the most profitable in this situation)

    On The Turn:
    I'd fold here.
    and consider it just one of those times where we played well - but ran bad.
    I'd also consider raising larger pre when nitty is in the blinds.
    there's nothing we can do about having aggro on the button - but when hands go multiway - like this one - we're put in a pickle that's hard to profit from.

    I like to raise for isolation. Larger sizings tend to do this the best.

    hope this helps
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    First, thanks for the time you put into these responses.

    Second, all good points and I will need to pick through it a few times to get the most from your feedback.

    Before posting I found the turn to be a difficult spot and it gnawed at me. It was actually my last hand of the session. Afterwards, i couldn't sort out If and where i went wrong, but like most newer players I wasn't looking at previous streets and how to keep out of difficult spots.

    As i now think the flop is where this hand went sideways, the turn is less important than I originally thought. I will post results because your feedback predicted it somewhat.

    I call the BB's all in for 70, which I disliked as soon as i did it. weak play because i didnt think about button.
    The button makes it 320 to go,
    Pot is now $565
    I need to call $250
    So here i am with 520 behind (after the 70 is pulled), facing a 250 bet and about 270 back.

    I tank. I do some quick ev math, consider BB's likely holding, Buttons likely holdings, that my only outs are hearts. i gave myself 18% equity and having to call well above that (about 30% B/E). I fold. I did not consider implied odds in the moment, which if I hit the river I would shove the last 270 and likely get called by BB as pot would be laying such good odds.

    I am good with my fold. If you see it different, please let me know. what i didn't like was my call of the BB's all in and the difficult spot i was in.




  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    live and learn.
    good fold on turn re-raise.
    if you learned something from the hand, the monies lost was simply tuition payment.

    we become better/stronger players when we can revisit hands and realize that the biggest mistakes are often based on our earliest actions.

    good job, @Bill S
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    thanks. The more i learn the less I know ...lol
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 104 ✭✭
    One other thing I would like to add. Bet bigger pre flop at 1/2. Minimum 12$ personally i prefer to make it 15$ if I’m going to open. It allows you to play bigger pots, folds out the junk, and lets you get paid when you have premium hands.

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