Kings Facing Aggression On Flop

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
Playing $1/$3 at MGM National Harbor on Friday night, this hand occurred about two hours into my session. I am on a terrific run of cards and I mention this only because I was concerned after the fact that my judgement was flawed in how I approached the hand (although this should not be an indication of how the hand turned out!)

In the big blind, I am dealt :Ks :KC: and am sitting with $690 behind. Villain opens to $10 from MP with now $390 remaining behind (V had just sat down at table, had 4 stacks of red still in a rack when this hand was dealt).

CO and BTN call, I raise to $45 and only the initial raiser in MP calls.

Pot going to the flop is $111. Regarding V's range, I have no information on him. I have never played with him although I have seen him in the card room a few times. He got near a max buy for his initial buy in, which is not normal for the MGM. A ton of people buy in for 100BB at $1/$3 and rarely do people buy in for the max of $500. So my initial thought with him is to approach him as a thinking player; he also seems very comfortable at table in what is starting to be a big pot.

So range-wise, normally I would take AA out of someone's range if they didn't 4-bet but given V is unknown, I was starting from a disadvantage here. My thoughts on range were 77+, A10+,KQ, KJ, QJ, J10. I personally think that's a pretty wide range to call a 3-bet but that's what I'm working off because Villain is unknown AND I have heard too many players discuss the value of JT and how it's the sneakiest best hand in poker. Eye roll. And honestly players at the MGM are absolute maniacs sometimes so I might even be being conservative.

Flop is :QS: :9S: :8H:

Hero bets $60, little more than 1/2 pot. Villain raises to $165.

How should hero proceed? Based on the range I assigned V, I am ahead of nearly 69% of his range and I need to put $105 to win the $336 in the pot. Villain will only have about a half pot bet left should I call this, however, so there is going to be little room to maneuver after the flop. V is probably willing to play for stacks so is Hero at the decision here where it's either get it in now or fold?

Comments appreciated. Happy Monday.

Comments

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I personally think that's a pretty wide range to call a 3-bet but that's what I'm working off because Villain is unknown AND I have heard too many players discuss the value of JT and how it's the sneakiest best hand in poker.

    Be honest: would you mention any of this if JT wasn't the nuts on the flop?

    I would personally check-call my KK here. Similar hand was discussed in a podcast from a while ago on range advantage (specifically overpair on wet board out of position): https://redchippoker.com/range-advantage-podcast/

    Now you're in a bad spot cause no option really seems great.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    How should hero proceed? Based on the range I assigned V, I am ahead of nearly 69% of his range and I need to put $105 to win the $336 in the pot. Villain will only have about a half pot bet left should I call this, however, so there is going to be little room to maneuver after the flop. V is probably willing to play for stacks so is Hero at the decision here where it's either get it in now or fold?

    Comments appreciated. Happy Monday.

    You are ahead of his preflop range but surely you don't expect him to raise his entire range right? What range do you put him on after he raises? You can then use your equity against that range to come to a decision in terms of EV.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    I personally think that's a pretty wide range to call a 3-bet but that's what I'm working off because Villain is unknown AND I have heard too many players discuss the value of JT and how it's the sneakiest best hand in poker.

    Be honest: would you mention any of this if JT wasn't the nuts on the flop?

    I would personally check-call my KK here. Similar hand was discussed in a podcast from a while ago on range advantage (specifically overpair on wet board out of position): https://redchippoker.com/range-advantage-podcast/

    Now you're in a bad spot cause no option really seems great.

    Oh yeah, I absolutely would include JT against an unknown. So many players talk about it as their favorite hand and make ludicrous comments about it being better than AK. The MGM sees so many loose players, I think its more than fair to include it here. I see why you would say that though :)
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    I personally think that's a pretty wide range to call a 3-bet but that's what I'm working off because Villain is unknown AND I have heard too many players discuss the value of JT and how it's the sneakiest best hand in poker.

    Be honest: would you mention any of this if JT wasn't the nuts on the flop?

    I would personally check-call my KK here. Similar hand was discussed in a podcast from a while ago on range advantage (specifically overpair on wet board out of position): https://redchippoker.com/range-advantage-podcast/

    Now you're in a bad spot cause no option really seems great.

    Problem is holding :KS: . We block so many combos we wish V called us with.

    365$ eff stack in a 115$ pot. There is also no reason to bet.

    I could see a bet sometimes, an underbet (max 1/3 pot) with no intention to fold, but no with :KS: .

    It's a situation we just want to see a cheap show down. Or a very very nice turn card (like :AS: , :JS: or :TS: )
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    How should hero proceed? Based on the range I assigned V, I am ahead of nearly 69% of his range and I need to put $105 to win the $336 in the pot. Villain will only have about a half pot bet left should I call this, however, so there is going to be little room to maneuver after the flop. V is probably willing to play for stacks so is Hero at the decision here where it's either get it in now or fold?

    Comments appreciated. Happy Monday.

    You are ahead of his preflop range but surely you don't expect him to raise his entire range right? What range do you put him on after he raises? You can then use your equity against that range to come to a decision in terms of EV.

    Great point. I need to get to this step on my own, thanks for pointing this out. In response, a raise with AA, AQ, KK (unlikely but possible), QQ, JT, 99, 88 seems reasonable.

    In which case, my kings are good there about 30% of the time, which does not give me the equity need to continue there based on the size of the raise, right?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    Great point. I need to get to this step on my own, thanks for pointing this out. In response, a raise with AA, AQ, KK (unlikely but possible), QQ, JT, 99, 88 seems reasonable.

    In which case, my kings are good there about 30% of the time, which does not give me the equity need to continue there based on the size of the raise, right?

    I don't think AA, AQ and KK raise flop to be honest. JT I would say only the suited ones call the 3bet preflop. What about some Ace-high flushdraws or other bluffs?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    I didn't have any read on V here; I also feel like people are rarely bluffing at lower limits. I'm certainly predisposed to think V has something here. But that's a fair point: I would consider a raise to the nut flush.

    AA isn't raising here? If I held the :AS: I would consider a raise since I block the nut flush; but then again I would have reraised pre as well. AJspades could raise, A10spades could do it. I block his AK suited draw to nut flush.

    You're probably right JT suited is more likely than JTo, I've just seen so many V overvalue this hand recently (so definitely some bias there).

    This was a tougher spot to me because I have zero read on V; literally his first hand at the table. It looks like I'm right on the threshold of a call factoring in the slight modification to range based on my equity, right? I'm leaning now toward fold being the right option here.

    I see what you mean though about getting into a bad spot here. Going to remember this one.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    This was a tougher spot to me because I have zero read on V; literally his first hand at the table.

    Also, did you have a plan ? What I read what a bet without a plan / strategy. Just "I've an overpair so I bet". Without a clear plan, ok/good Villain can easily put you in tough spots
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    This was a tougher spot to me because I have zero read on V; literally his first hand at the table.

    Also, did you have a plan ? What I read what a bet without a plan / strategy. Just "I've an overpair so I bet". Without a clear plan, ok/good Villain can easily put you in tough spots

    No I absolutely did not; hinted at that in the beginning of the post. That is the largest issue here. I did not even consider a raise would be coming. The table this hand was at was very passive, I got significantly over confident going into this hand. Once the raise came out, I was completely unprepared for how I would respond. I had been doing such a good job of this of thinking how Vs would react to my actions and how I would react based on theirs. Lost it this hand though.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    Even without having planned the raise, what did you expect by betting? Do you want to get called? If yes, by which hands?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    I'm hoping to get called by AK, AQ,, and wanted to make him pay to see another card if he's on a draw. I bet because on that board there's a ton of potential draws out there, I can't give away a free card with an overpair. That was my thought.
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    I’m checking this flop. This is a horrible flop for our hand. Against villains range.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Yeah I certainly wish I had checked it. I chalk this up to needing a break. I note my breaks in my session notes and I had not taken one in quite a while. So easy to fall into "oh nice, a strong overpair, let's bet" and then just be dumbfounded when V starts repping something that has it beat.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm hoping to get called by AK, AQ,, and wanted to make him pay to see another card if he's on a draw. I bet because on that board there's a ton of potential draws out there, I can't give away a free card with an overpair. That was my thought.

    Does he have AK ? Does he floats AK (with at best AsKx) on such board?

    Which draws does he have ?
  • LukaLuka Red Chipper Posts: 216 ✭✭✭
    3bet bigger pre, no clue what hands the field callers called the initial $10 open with and then found a fold to an additional $35. You’re lucky this didn’t go four ways.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Luka wrote: »
    3bet bigger pre, no clue what hands the field callers called the initial $10 open with and then found a fold to an additional $35. You’re lucky this didn’t go four ways.

    I thought this was an okay 3-bet sizing: 3x+ 1x per limper I have read is standard. I suppose $50 would have fit that bill, not $45, but close. My previous 3bets got no action so I thought bringing it down a bit might get someone to give me some action. I was relatively sure $45 was going to get it heads up based on how the table was playing.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    My previous 3bets got no action so I thought bringing it down a bit might get someone to give me some action.
    What you want is not pricing Villain to call you down. (Except when you've a monster and use an exploitative play)
    What you want is 3bet more often.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    My previous 3bets got no action so I thought bringing it down a bit might get someone to give me some action.
    What you want is not pricing Villain to call you down. (Except when you've a monster and use an exploitative play)
    What you want is 3bet more often.

    Can you elaborate? This may seem self explanatory to more studied players but I am still a novice trying to learn (as I think is clear). I have expanded my 3 bet range significantly the past month to great success (people simply do not call them enough in my games) and I have some bluffs in my 3-bet range at times.

    So what I think you're saying is that I should not adjust my sizing just because I am not getting action. I should keep it consistent and just do it more and then I'll start to get more action when I am 3 betting AND win more pots pre when I don't?

    Oh I think I also just realized that I could be signaling a stronger hand by using a smaller sizing to try to bring people into the hand which is going to be counterproductive. Is that an accurate take away, too? If not, why not?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    It always depends on your plan. What you want to achieve, against whom, and with which range.
    Can you elaborate? This may seem self explanatory to more studied players but I am still a novice trying to learn (as I think is clear). I have expanded my 3 bet range significantly the past month to great success (people simply do not call them enough in my games) and I have some bluffs in my 3-bet range at times.
    If they bet/fold too much, then 3bet all the time. If you print money (+EV) by 3bet any 2 cards, why not doing it ?
    Oh I think I also just realized that I could be signaling a stronger hand by using a smaller sizing to try to bring people into the hand which is going to be counterproductive. Is that an accurate take away, too? If not, why not?
    Most of low stakes player won't pay attention to the bet sizing. So you could use an exploitative way to maxEV your strong hands by 3bet lower, trying to induce a call.

    But a) don't forget to take in account with what range they call and how to navigate the flop, both in texture (AA can be outfloped) and bet sizing.
    b) a good player will see you've unbalanced range and abuse you (strong "cheaper" 3bet range, weaker expensive 3bet range). Like, 4betting you anytime you 3bet on the large side.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    Thanks @Red that makes a lot of sense.

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