Flopped Nut Straight & Facing Aggression

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
$1/$3 NL at MGM, dealt :KH::QS: UTG, sitting with $1200 behind. I open to $15. UTG 1 ($400, fit or folder, very weak, mentioned in other post), and Button ($200, no read) call.

Flop comes :AS::TH::JS: So I've flopped a straight, great news. With the flush draw out there, I do not want to check and give anyone a free card but I also do not want to scare anyone away so I bet $18, slightly more than 1/3 pot.

UTG+1 snaps $80 into the pot. Button folds and the action is back on me. I mentioned this V in another post and he's extremely passive post flop, fit or folder, I can usually take a pot off him if an overcard falls and I bet 2/3 pot. So for him to be raising in this scenario makes me think his range looks something like: TT, JJ, KQ, JT, AT, AJ. He would have 3-bet aces pre so I took that out preflop.

He fears flush draws and has actively said many times he likes to bomb the pot if a flush draw is out there "so nobody can suck out on me." He says this proudly, picture someone tugging on their suspenders. So I sort of get that sense that he is trying to push me off a non-existent flush draw with a really strong holding, only 2 pair, sets and KQ for the chop.

How should hero proceed here? If I call and then check, V is going to check back a ton of the time on the turn. (I know that seems inconsistent with the above about bombing the pot on the flop but he really only does this on the flop. He will back off on the turn a ton of the time.)

I'm trying to get better about thinking downstream and how I'll act the entire hand rather than just focusing on the moment; the four lines I saw to take facing the raise and on the turn were as follows:

1) Min raise V's raise hoping for a shove
2) Shove on V (he would probably fold most of his range here)
3) Call and check turn (I think he would check back)
4) Call and underbet turn

Am I thinking about this correctly? Is there anything I am missing here?

Comments

  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    I think the brutality of the feedback should be equal to how seriously you'd like to study poker. How seriously would you like to take poker?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    AlvinLau wrote: »
    I think the brutality of the feedback should be equal to how seriously you'd like to study poker. How seriously would you like to take poker?

    I would like to take it very seriously and I do not shy away from any criticism, hence why I post so many hands. All constructive feedback appreciated, brutal or otherwise.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    AlvinLau wrote: »
    I think the brutality of the feedback should be equal to how seriously you'd like to study poker. How seriously would you like to take poker?

    I would like to take it very seriously and I do not shy away from any criticism, hence why I post so many hands. All constructive feedback appreciated, brutal or otherwise.

    I’m serious about poker study. So I’m fine with you brutalizing Jordan for my benefit :-0
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    It's a little early so I'm not going to go line by line, but off handedly:

    1) Like the majority of live US players, you're trying to learn poker by looking at your hand then developing a strategy in the moment and hoping it fits into a larger strategy that your opponent isn't openly exploiting.

    In many ways, I imagine this is like designing a jigsaw puzzle one piece at a time and hoping it all forms a perfect image in the end. It's really difficult. Much smarter is to design the image first and then cut the puzzle apart.

    Additionally, much of your reads and logic do not come to the correct strategic conclusion, even if your reads are right. For example, you say villain likely has

    "... a really strong holding, only 2 pair, sets and KQ for the chop."

    But then you say

    "2) Shove on V (he would probably fold most of his range here)"

    Which doesn't make sense. Either he's strong and you should shove or he's weak and you should not.

    Also, you probably over rely on your reads to the point where you make significant mistakes through over complicating your thought process, because in this hand almost all real range analysis went out of the window because you heard a guy once make a comment about flush draws.

    Professional players start by creating full strategies so the need for hand history questions isn't that necessary, they try to be much more scientific in their information gathering and execution, and they correctly apply strategies based on the reads. In the above hand example, I'd say all of this is misapplied.

    But I would never ask, say, "how should I play AA or top pair in X or Y position?" That method of learning probably causes more leaks than it fixes and is how a lot of players study and use GTO nowadays.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Thanks @AlvinLau I really appreciate the time you put into this. And this wasn't brutal at all, so if you toned it down for some reason, no need. Looking stupid on this forum has improved my game immensely so I'm not hesitant to take brutal feedback lol.

    I rarely rely on live reads at the table (I don't have enough experience to make these judgements) and I know how crazy all the above sounds but I have seen this guy lay down sets to aggression, lay down straights because a flush completed on river. I have probably 50 hours of experience against this particular V which perhaps I should not have included but I wanted to include some of this information to get my own thought process in there. And maybe it's usless because if this guy is so nitty post flop, maybe there's no way to really get a ton of value on him. (I ended up min raising and he laid down JT, he showed me before he mucked it.)

    And this is also really helpful because I hear what you're saying about how my thought process is flawed. Maybe this V is also too odd an example to get any meaningful feedback on because it seemingly does not make any sense how he can take certain actions.

    Can you recommend a starting point for developing a solid strategy? I'm just getting to the point where I am comfortable knowing why I am taking some actions and why I rule out others. Obviously a long way to go, but any resources (I am enrolled in CORE, study daily) to start building a strategy for playing low limit. I don't really know where to begin crafting that. I certainly am using the jigsaw method at the moment.

    And @Paul_K I'm happy to take the bullets for ya, man ;)
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Unfortunately, there isn't a cohesive way to learn this method in a linear manner outside of private coaching, high stakes study groups, or a few $1000 courses you can buy online, and the reviews for those courses are fairly mixed. Having seen about 95% of the training material in poker, there are very few producers who understand this material, and even fewer can articulate it well. For the new player, it is nearly impossible to distinguish what is good advice and what is not.

    This is a hand all of my students play similarly with light reads:

    Hero has 8c4c
    Raise button, bb calls.
    Flop Qs9h3d
    Check, Hero bets 33%, bb calls.
    Turn 2c
    Hero bets 125%...
    River 6h
    Hero bets 125%...

    If you're unfamiliar with the underlying mechanics behind this play it's complete spew (for example I would not run this play with Tc4c), and it's a play that's almost impossible to arrive at through self study. If you showed it to even some professional players, they would not understand what's going on because it requires context within an entire strategy.

    But if you you saw someone run this play against you, would you mark them as an expert, or a huge spewy fish? It tough to say.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    AlvinLau wrote: »
    This is a hand all of my students play similarly with light reads:

    Hero has 8c4c
    Raise button, bb calls.
    Flop Qs9h3d
    Check, Hero bets 33%, bb calls.
    Turn 2c
    Hero bets 125%...
    River 6h
    Hero bets 125%...
    Is there a difference here between playing 8c4c, Ac2c and 44 ? I've the naive feeling it's "just" a way to play air by rep a Q without blocking any draw and met hands V could call flop/turn but fold river. (That's why you don't want Tc, to not block JT or T9)
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Neither Ac2c nor 44 qualify as a triple barrel.

    Ac2c and 44 check the turn to often call (or raise) a river lead. Against some opponents I show up on the river with Q8 and raise here and they really have no concept of what's going on.

    I do agree that the spirit of this is to unblock villain's call call fold range!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Isn't A2s (weak pair) or 44 (underpair) be the same as your 8c4c ? I don't see or understand the difference between these hands... is it because A2s and 44 have some SDV and few outs to get the best hands (trips, sets, top/bottom 2P) and we don't want to turn them into an air bluff ? Edit: If that so, I'm wondering if it's not an exaggeration, because there are really so few cards to improve that I don't consider really better than 8c4c
  • AlvinLauAlvinLau Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I don't think examination of individual hands reinforces proper study habits, nor do I agree with the categorization of your hands. Nor did I even list the required reads to unlock this play, so guessing the motives isn't going to be fruitful.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    And @Paul_K I'm happy to take the bullets for ya, man ;)

    Hey... thanks! I've taken my share as well, so I'm sure I'll return the favor soon.

    Hope you enjoyed your feedback while you had it. Looks like pbf prodi..... errrr, I mean Alvin, has suddenly disappeared (again).
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    What is with him constantly disappearing? I didn't find his feedback helpful as I have found others but still...
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    Previously banned... snuck back in disguise which, apparently, didn't hold up.

    dfaagl3nu4b5.jpg
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    Options 1 or 4 imo. Based on your assessment of villain, it sounds like he'll either call the min-raise of his raise, and then fold on the turn if he doesn't hit, OR he'll fold right there. 4 sounds like a good option for some last-minute extra value before he concedes the pot. My question would be, what do you do when villain calls your re-raise OTF, and then calls you down on the turn with your underbet, what's the river plan here?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    I guess this is as good a place as any to remind everyone that we do restrict users to a single account. If you violate this you trigger SUMADS. (Single-User/Multi-Account Detection System.)

    Let me add a personal note here. I think it is a great pity that the developers of SUMADS couldn't show an ounce of creativity in naming this system. It would have been trivial to have made this "SUNBLOC" or "DURESS" or possibly even "DUMBASS" but no! We get saddled with "SUMADS." Shame.
    Moderation In Moderation

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