Hand Review

Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
edited November 3 in Live Poker Hands
Game = $1/$2 - 9 Players

Hero = Real early in session. Maybe 20 minutes in, though I've won 2 straight forward hands already so up about $60. It's about 5:30 PM during the yearly poker room promotion with high hands & hot seats so the place is packed with a lonnnnnng waiting list.

Villain = No real reads. Too early on for me but he has about $800 in front of him ($300 max buy-in).

Eff Stacks = ~$360

Hero = :Kd :Kh

UTG (Hero) = Raises $10

Sidebar: I never raise this small but it was one of those tables where no one was looking to get involved in big pots. The few hands I saw were basically people agreeing to check it down, folds after PFR's to $7, weird stuff like that. There were some pretty deep stacks so I'm guessing they were just sitting around waiting for fish. Foreshadowing!

UTG+1 = Folds
MP1 = Calls $10
MP2 = Folds
HJ = Calls $10
CO = Folds
Button = Calls $10
SB = Calls $10
BB = Calls $10

Flop = $60

:2c :3c :9d

SB & BB = Check

Hero = Bets $40
MP1, HJ & Button = Fold
SB = Raises $110
BB = Folds

Hero = Thinks for about 30 seconds & calls $70

Turn = $280

:4h

SB = All-in for ~$240 effective

Hero = ???


Comments

  • LoveFishLoveFish Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November 3
    Raise bigger pre flop, who cares if no one else is raising that big. Worry about you and your game.
    I would fold here. Guy has a set for sure.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭
    [quote="Steve M;d-11668"Sidebar: I never raise this small but it was one of those tables where no one was looking to get involved in big pots
    [/quote]
    Time to hit their pain threshold. And not pricing them down to see if their cards hit the flop (hard).
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭
    Lots of things to consider here.

    First, and by faaaaar the most important:
    Steve M wrote: »
    Real early in session. Maybe 20 minutes in, though I've won 2 straight forward hands already so up about $60. It's about 5:30 PM during the yearly poker room promotion with high hands & hot seats so the place is packed with a lonnnnnng waiting list.

    Villain = No real reads. Too early on for me but he has about $800 in front of him ($300 max buy-in).

    Eff Stacks = ~$360

    Hero = :Kd :Kh

    UTG (Hero) = Raises $10

    Sidebar: I never raise this small but it was one of those tables where no one was looking to get involved in big pots. The few hands I saw were basically people agreeing to check it down, folds after PFR's to $7, weird stuff like that. There were some pretty deep stacks so I'm guessing they were just sitting around waiting for fish. Foreshadowing!

    You're creating backwards logic to justify a play that you know is bad. If it's "really early" and "too early" in the session, then you have no way of concluding that "it was one of those tables where one was looking to get involved in big pots." Your forced justification for a deviant pre-flop play set up the rest of the failed hand.

    You could actually end the hand analysis here. But, as played...

    1) Why on earth are you betting the flop?
    2) Why are you betting the flop without a pre-conceived plan of what to do when (and it's "when" in this case far more often than "if") raised?
    3) And why, oh why, are you calling the flop raise without a plan for the all-but-inevitable turn shove? (In particular, the turn card doesn't change anything. There are next to zero hands that V could hold that this card helped. That reinforces my question here.)
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    edited November 5
    I feel like I rarely agree with @moishetreats on hand analysis, but I completely agree with his questioning why you are betting this flop. This board is awful for your range and amazing for a bunch of flatters. 6-ways OOP, this hand does much better as a check-call, imo.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    I feel like I rarely agree with @moishetreats on hand analysis,

    LOL.

    And here I just agreed with your hand analysis on another thread! :) :) Love the debates!
  • CluuuuuuuutchCluuuuuuuutch Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    I want to understand why we are checking flop here. Aren't we going to miss a lot of value from 9x and flush draws that way?

    DISCLAIMER: because of the above posts, I'm not going to account for any reads on opponents or table as a whole. I'm only accounting for general hand reading and dynamics at an average 1/2nl table (given my limited experience lol).

    I would play this hand about the same way you did with a couple exceptions. I would've raised larger pre-flop and I would've bet smaller on the flop.

    As played, I would probably call the turn jam. I think the most important thing to remember here is this is a small blind caller that had it fold around to him. When he raises here, he only has to worry about the BB, whose range is the widest to begin with. This often opens up his bluffing range. This could include a ton of flush draws, mostly including AcXc and pair plus flush draws. V is only going to have 10 combos of value on the turn (9 sets and Ac5c that turned wheel). V will most definitely have enough draws here to justify a call.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    edited November 5
    The reason why I like checking this flop is because it is very hard to have the effective nuts on this board, and we are never going to get 3 streets of value with this hand and be happy about it, so why are we starting now?

    You are right that we allow some draws to get there by checking and it may be more +EV for a good player to bet this (although I really am not sure, since this is what, six ways to a flop?!), but if you are betting this flop, you have to have a very well-thought out fold/call range when you get raised, because you cannot call all your overpairs here or you are gonna get stacked too often. I'm guessing the author does not have his/her range figured out in this way, and it would be easier to play this as a check on the flop.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6
    I want to understand why we are checking flop here. Aren't we going to miss a lot of value from 9x and flush draws that way?

    Let's imagine a different scenario for a moment. Hero is UTG with KK, only SB calls. Flop comes 9d3c2c.

    Now, let's look at SB. How many 9x hands does SB really have? Well, it depends on that particular player. Would SB call pre-flop with T9s or 98s -- or fold or 3bet? What about suited one-gappers? What about T9 or 98o? What A9s, K9s, Q9s? And do we really have enough info about SB to get a good handle on it?

    I would imagine that 99, 33, and 22 are all in the call range. Maybe A4, A5, 23, and 45.

    And maybe a bunch of hands with two clubs.

    Of all these hands, how many would check-raise the flop -- again, heads-up?

    Finally, what percentage of SB's pre-flop call range do these hands comprise?

    Bottom line, it is reaaaaaally hard to range SB here. And a check-raise puts us quite and awkward spot unless we're pretty clear about SB's pre-flop call and post-flop check-raise range and how that plays against our perceived range and, ultimately, our exact hand.

    Ugh.

    If you wanted to cbet here for, say, 30%-40% of the pot because you do that with 75%+ frequency, then go for it. If you know that SB is prone to check-calling lightly or chasing draws without applying pressure, then go for it. Otherwise, whether to cbet or check heads-up is a worthwhile discussion.


    Now, add in multiple other players. We have even less idea what we're up against. If this table has proven to flat-call pre-flop and over-fold on the flop or the turn, then, again, cbetting could have some merit. Absent that particular table flow, though, this looks like a spot where you're really guessing pretty blindly what people have. By cbetting, you're inflating the pot and ultimately putting your entire stack at risk.

    Will you miss out on some value some of the time? Yup. Will you let an opponent get there some of the time? Yup. That's the alternative to building the pot and being ready to get it all in with an overpair in a multiway pot. From my experience, getting it all in with an overpair in a multiway pot often means that you're going to get stacked.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 149 ✭✭
    From my experience, getting it all in with an overpair in a multiway pot often means that you're going to get stacked.

    Yep. I hate folding them on boards like this to a big bet but I have done so with an increased frequency and I haven't been the stackee in this type of situation in a while. Hero calling with an overpair at lower limits has had me reaching in my pocket more times than I care to admit.

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