Flop Falcon vs. Flopzilla

DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
edited November 2018 in Poker Software
Looking to make a purchase of either; does anyone have any insight to add regarding values of both?

Ultimate goal would be to use this type of software, to gauge how ranges hit flops etc. However, I also saw that Flop Falcon really focuses on hit frequencies that are along the lines of what Ed Miller discusses. Thoughts?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Flopzilla

    Both are good, but don't serve the same goals.
    Flopzilla is to nerd around ranges - preflop as well as postflop (flop/turn/river) and hit frequencies, plus some other nerdy things. A must. A tool to master to get around ranges.
    Flopfalcon is more hit frequencies range against range, equity in scenarii hit/don't hit for both hero and villain. In general or on specific flop. It's a strongly advanced tool to have a way deeper understanding on how to hit the flop. Flop only.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @Red

    Thank you, this is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. Flopzilla it is.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Ive never used flop falcon so i cannot really comment on its usefuless or practical application to off table study.

    Flopzilla has some uses, but equilab is free and is a similar program. Flopzilla has broader functionality but to get the most use out of it requires simultaneously running 2 instances of flopzilla to perform range v range analysis.

    By far the most useful and powerful poker software is one which calculates gto solutions. The cheapest gto solver right now costs about the same as 3 flopzilla licenses but will pay you back many times over when used correctly.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Flopzilla has some uses, but equilab is free and is a similar program. Flopzilla has broader functionality but to get the most use out of it requires simultaneously running 2 instances of flopzilla to perform range v range analysis.
    I'm sorry but I've to disagree. Equilab - at least the free version - is far of being as strong as flopzilla. Yes you can calculate equity, from and against a range or a hand. But you miss all the hit %, filter to the next streets, combo selection. (I could speak about other functionality, but these would be too advanced for now).
    I'd really have a bad time (much more time and energy consuming) trying to use Equilab like I use Flopzilla for range analysis.
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    By far the most useful and powerful poker software is one which calculates gto solutions. The cheapest gto solver right now costs about the same as 3 flopzilla licenses but will pay you back many times over when used correctly.
    But then you've to learn and understand gto.
    Not sure a solver is really needed for a beginner who looks for his 1st poker software?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Red gave an accurate breakdown.

    Buy flopzilla, come buy Flop Falcon later. Both are essential software end of 2018

    At some point you just stop analysis paralysis and just buy these standard tools.

    Disclosure: I invested flop falcon
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Flopzilla has some uses, but equilab is free and is a similar program. Flopzilla has broader functionality but to get the most use out of it requires simultaneously running 2 instances of flopzilla to perform range v range analysis.
    I'm sorry but I've to disagree. Equilab - at least the free version - is far of being as strong as flopzilla. Yes you can calculate equity, from and against a range or a hand. But you miss all the hit %, filter to the next streets, combo selection. (I could speak about other functionality, but these would be too advanced for now).
    I'd really have a bad time (much more time and energy consuming) trying to use Equilab like I use Flopzilla for range analysis.
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    By far the most useful and powerful poker software is one which calculates gto solutions. The cheapest gto solver right now costs about the same as 3 flopzilla licenses but will pay you back many times over when used correctly.
    But then you've to learn and understand gto.
    Not sure a solver is really needed for a beginner who looks for his 1st poker software?

    Red the big takeaway from my postshould be that gto software is the gold standard for anybody serious enough to invest money into poker software. Of COURSE you have to learn how to use the software. Its a long and arduous journey. And I would argue that gto software could be the first and last piece of poker software any student of the game needs.

    The best players all use gto software, a handful of good to great players use flopzilla, and as for flop falcon, well the only place I’ve ever heard it recommended is here (no disrespect, Doug).

    Everything flopzilla can do, you can do using pen and paper. No human can practically calculate or produce all the counterintuitive, subtle, and quite frankly beautiful results a gto solver can.

    Disclaimer: I’m nowhere near intelligent enough to invent any type of poker software, nor do I have any stake in any company which produces poker software.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »

    Everything flopzilla can do, you can do using pen and paper. No human can practically calculate or produce all the counterintuitive, subtle, and quite frankly beautiful results a gto solver can.

    Disclaimer: I’m nowhere near intelligent enough to invent any type of poker software, nor do I have any stake in any company which produces poker software.

    Anything a computer can do pen and paper can too. While GTO+ is several order of magnitudes more complicated than flopzilla in calculations, both are just math.

    I would not want to do flopzilla by hand, but desert island scenario I could do GTO by hand. We build the calculators because these calculations are tedious, not because they are difficult.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Doug your response leads me to
    believe you missed the word “practical” in my last post.


    It’s also extremely important to recognize that the results of calculations we study are practical and relevant, whether these calculations performed using a calculator or pen and paper. Ive found the results produced by flopzilla were less relevant than gto solvers when constructing a quality, holistic strategy (quality inputs for both programs being equal) and the top experts in the field seem to agree.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,440 -
    edited November 2018
    This seems like a good time to ask a question that has been bugging me for months. Aren't all strategies by definition "holistic"?

    As far as I can make out, "holistic strategy" entered the lexicon from marketing: a field that has done more damage to the English language than any other.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat

    Fair points, definitely something to chew on

    @Doug Hull

    Thank you for adding valuable input, it makes sense regarding the potential value we can extract from both software packages

    @Red

    Great breakdown as always

    @Wiki_Leaks

    I understand where you are coming from as well, me being new to the game doesn't take away my conceptualization skills in general, so you have also given me something to think about

    Either way, my takeaway from this thread; is to consider both options as both generate different types of value when it comes to poker strategy. In a game that is far from solved, it would be silly to marry ourselves to one and one method alone.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Deadlift, do your own objective research. I hope you find your investment worthwhile.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    This seems like a good time to ask a question that has been bugging me for months. Aren't all strategies by definition "holistic"?

    Kat I hope this is a quip and that you understand the answer to your question is a resounding NO. This answer is blatantly obvious when reading HH on any poker forum, and often when watching training videos or speaking with poker coaches.

    I think when comments begin to nitpick irrelevant parts of another’s post instead of providing thoughtful or helpful feedback to the OP, the thread is dead son :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not quite dead yet, because:

    These products are affordable if not cheap and will pay for themselves. It's a fun little fake bracket challenge set up here and every month, but cmon.

    You guys are willing to punt off thousands and later whine about it here, but suddenly we can't afford milk and eggs?

    Cmon.
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    @persuadeo

    Definitely willing to do research before making any type of purchases towards improving my game; this felt like a solid place to start inquiring about other's experiences
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,440 -
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Deadlift, do your own objective research. I hope you find your investment worthwhile.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    This seems like a good time to ask a question that has been bugging me for months. Aren't all strategies by definition "holistic"?

    Kat I hope this is a quip and that you understand the answer to your question is a resounding NO. This answer is blatantly obvious when reading HH on any poker forum, and often when watching training videos or speaking with poker coaches.

    I think when comments begin to nitpick irrelevant parts of another’s post instead of providing thoughtful or helpful feedback to the OP, the thread is dead son :)

    It was an attempt at humor. Swing and a miss apparently.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Thought there was a chance of that, you must be British lol. Didn’t mean to sound defensive. Just didn’t want someone to take it at face value.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,440 -
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Thought there was a chance of that, you must be British lol. Didn’t mean to sound defensive. Just didn’t want someone to take it at face value.

    I am, but not on purpose.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Red the big takeaway from my postshould be that gto software is the gold standard for anybody serious enough to invest money into poker software.

    This is a little off because you're comparing apples to oranges. You're saying it like "Cadillac is the gold standard of cars." But it's more like saying "DeWalt tile saws are the gold standard of power tools." That's a pretty meaningless thing to say. They might be the gold standard of tile saws, but not much use if you need a sander.

  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    I agree comparing a gto solver to flopzilla is comparing apples to oranges, just not for the reasons you gave.

    I think one would be hard pressed to identify many, if any, features of flopzilla that pio can’t do almost as well, whereas the converse of this is untrue. However I am open to being proved wrong here in case I have overlooked flopzillas capabilities.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My point was you can use a paddle mixer to drive in a screw, but sometimes a screwdriver is best.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    My dad had this marketing driven shopsmith that could be reconfigured into a a variety of tools like a tablesaw, drillpress, etc. In my entire life, I never saw it in anything but the tablesaw mode. He ended up buying a dedicated tool for each of the things the shopsmith could do. He should have just bought a dedicated table saw since that is all he ever used it for anyways.

    We build specialized tools for a reason. Just because you can use a Philips screwdriver as a hammer does not mean you should MacGuyver it.

    You are playing a game where you are routinely winning and losing $100's (at minimum) and are agonizing over three tools that are clearly important and can be purchased for the combined price of one dubious call?
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • ChipFluxChipFlux Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭

    TheGameKat wrote: »
    This seems like a good time to ask a question that has been bugging me for months. Aren't all strategies by definition "holistic"?

    As far as I can make out, "holistic strategy" entered the lexicon from marketing: a field that has done more damage to the English language than any other.

    Dilly Dilly!

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