"What If".... 75s on the BTN - HU

Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
edited June 2015 in Online Poker Hands
So i played a little Heads Up with a regular for a bit while waiting for the seats to be filled up, and i entered this spot where i had alot of questions about different lines. Basically the hand played out the way i wanted to because of me knowing my villain but i couldn't get my mind off of some "What If" lines in this hand.

Merge - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): $88.60
BB: $69.60 (VPIP: 24.65, PFR: 18.54, 3Bet Preflop: 7.39, Hands: 1,990)

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7:diamond: 5:diamond:

Hero raises to $1.00, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.00, 2 players) 4:spade: 5:heart: 3:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BB raises to $4.00, Hero calls $2.50


Turn: ($10.00, 2 players) J:diamond:
BB bets $6.66, Hero calls $6.66

On this Turn here, this is a good barrelling card, actually an excellent barrelling card. I was thinking about raising here vs calling..... Don't blow up yet and call me crazy because i am well aware it is putting me in a situation where if i bet i am more likely to put myself in a situation where better calls worse folds.

However, my biggest thing here is the future street.
1. Wether an overcard or not come that ain't diamonds... I don't want to see a third bet.
2. If i was in his shoe, when i see that J:diamond: I am going to be making a ton of moves on the river, most likely shoving and the only cards that could come that could change my mind is if the board paired up.
3. Sometimes i could even get hands like 66, 77, 88, 99 & TT to fold here, which was i was speculating on and off because my image is really aggressive at these games.
4. All lines are still +EV, calling is the most +EV but the most dangerous line to take here going into the river IMO.


River: ($23.32, 2 players) 3:heart:
BB checks, Hero checks

[spoil]BB shows 8:diamond: 7:spade: (One Pair, Threes)
(Pre 67%, Flop 28%, Turn 14%)
Hero shows 7:diamond: 5:diamond: (Two Pair, Fives and Threes)
(Pre 33%, Flop 72%, Turn 86%)
Hero wins $22.32[/spoil]

What you think about it?
-Rello

"Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    Do you flat the flop with any hands that you would then value raise the turn with?
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    33, 44, 55, JJ, KK, AA, 67s, A2..

    Some of those hands will be raising the turn to protect against the draws in his raising range and backdoor draws of course.

    EDIT: I totally disrespected the ladies xD.... QQ is there as well.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    If that's the case then you have no value 3bet range on the flop?
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Hands like 43s, 53s & weaker overpairs like 66, 77 (With draws), 88, 99 & ocasionally TT will 3bet the flop. The more stronger part of my range which can handle a call to allow his bluff to continue will just call here.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    I'd rather try to induce a bluff 4bet jam on the flop than call and be at the mercy of run offs...
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Ok, so you think a 3bet here for protection is better?
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    Rello242 wrote:
    Ok, so you think a 3bet here for protection is better?

    I'd 3bet the flop, yeah.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    ok also a valid line to take, make sense. Do we need any bluffs here?
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    We're going to have so many legit pairs and decent semi-bluffs that I don't think we need any pure bluffs in our range here.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    I never just put pure bluffs in there, im one of those players that keeps air out of his range as much as possible and hands that have potential to becoming something in there, but say i have a hand like A3 here. Instead of letting this go in this spot because i don't want to be unbalance, can i now take A3 and 3bet here? Should i just try keep this spot unbalance and be more value oriented?

    Note: This is a good reg. i am playing, vs fishy or villains that just ain't folding enough, this won't be an option, since i expect them to just call with any piece here.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    well there's "real value" (55) and "murky value" (like A3) here =)
  • Morgan_BMorgan_B Red Chipper Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Hey guys I'm just trying to understand the thought process here. This is technical but since villain check raised the flop isn't that a 3-bet and if we then re-raised that would be a 4-bet right? Anyway what you're saying is we want to re-raise the flop and stack off???

    I'd say we're very slightly ahead of his flop raising range but not at all ahead of his shoving range. If we re-raise the flop to $12 we have about $57 behind. Seems like he's folding air (over cards), calling with his draws, and shoving strong draws that have significant equity along with everything that beats us. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose if he folds all his pure bluffs and continues with good equity.

    If we do just call his flop raise what specific cards are we afraid of; an ace, two, seven or eight. I can be on board with re-raising the flop since we have position. It will force out random over cards and make playing the rest of the hand easier. However, if we re-raise the flop and he shoves I'm not calling, not without other information.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Morgan_B wrote:
    Hey guys I'm just trying to understand the thought process here. This is technical but since villain check raised the flop isn't that a 3-bet and if we then re-raised that would be a 4-bet right?

    No this isn't preflop where the initial first bet (big blind) is forced.. So technically on the flop my bet was the first, his raised is the 2nd and we were discussing a 3bet..
    Morgan_B wrote:
    Anyway what you're saying is we want to re-raise the flop and stack off???

    Technically yes, but not for the reason your making it seem as if we are just way ahead and this is pure value, but for the fact that villain here is raising quite a number of bluffs and we don't want to be at the mercy of the run out of the board. (As SplitSuit described)...

    3betting the flop here is merely a protection raise if you considering what you are going to do in terms of future street and cards to come, and basically what SplitSuit was trying to point out, there aren't much good cards that can come for me and thus making a raise while we are still ahead majority of the time here is a factor to look into...
    Morgan_B wrote:
    'd say we're very slightly ahead of his flop raising range but not at all ahead of his shoving range. If we re-raise the flop to $12 we have about $57 behind. Seems like he's folding air (over cards), calling with his draws, and shoving strong draws that have significant equity along with everything that beats us. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose if he folds all his pure bluffs and continues with good equity.

    Your logic makes perfect sense, but as SplitSuit dictated, which i agree on, how do feel about our hand when those overcards hits and those 4-card straights hits and what do we do then? Its a chance that he could still blow us off the hand and we do have re-draws and backdoor equity that can come in handy if all else fail...
    Morgan_B wrote:
    If we do just call his flop raise what specific cards are we afraid of; an ace, two, seven or eight. I can be on board with re-raising the flop since we have position. It will force out random over cards and make playing the rest of the hand easier. However, if we re-raise the flop and he shoves I'm not calling, not without other information.

    Well there are the scare cards and there are the action killer cards. While Ace, Two, Seven or Eight is scary what happens when the board run out like 9K or JQ or something. One of the reasons why i posted this hand because in this spot where my villain is bluffing a decent amount of combos, i wanted to pick a spot where to deny him his equity with his overcards and draws, and of course we do get crushed by his overpairs and his draws have a decent amount of equity but we still have re-draws and backdoor as mentioned earlier and this topic really came down to how do we play this optimally without making life a living hell on future streets. If villain was good enough to apply maximum pressure there, i may have folded.

    As long as all the spots remain +EV, it comes down to what works best and i wanted to make that protection raise on the turn and SplitSuit was like its better on the flop and i have to agree. Now with the whole balancing and range work, we want to make sure we never give off any tells since of course our villain is a good thinking player reg. :D

    P.S. SplitSuit i hope i understood and explain this the way you was trying to explain it to me :)
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Morgan_BMorgan_B Red Chipper Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Thanks for clarifying I thought a raise was a 3-bet but it makes sense when you think of the bb as the first bet. I think both you and Split Suit have done a good job explaining.

    Anyway I've put this scenario into Poker Snowie and here's some thoughts based on it's advice...

    Calling the flop isn't that bad, especially if stacks are smaller. It keeps the pot small and we still have position and good equity. If he bets pot on the turn we're still calling any 5, 6, 7 or any diamond (18 cards or 38%). If he blows us off the hand the other 62% of the time we only lose $5, big deal. Unlikely but maybe he checks the turn. Maybe he flopped the nuts and we save $65. The point is calling the flop isn't terrible as long as you're willing to fold the turn when no 5, 6, 7 or diamond comes. FYI Snowie occasionally raises the K and Q of hearts and spades (and 5 of clubs) on the turn when played this way.

    I like raising the flop because, as you and Split Suit have explained, it folds out his over cards and makes the hand easier to play. If villain 4-bet jams the flop we don't have enough equity to call (looking at Flopzilla I'm guessing 25% or so). We should fold and take the $13 loss rather than invest an additional $57.

    Trying to think how I would have played the hand... I may 3-bet the flop but honestly I probably would have called as well. When the diamond hits on the turn I very well may have raised. I see now that this is unbalanced because value hands like 2 pair or better would have already raised the flop. I'm sure I've taken lines like this before with over pairs and diamond draws and I see how it's just wrong, not balanced and can put you in tough spots. Looking at Flopzilla again, I'm probably stacking off the flop with a pair of 66 or better but not a pair of 5's. Thanks to you and Split Suit for helping me learn.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Yea its why i post the hand, its always really important thinking about how you can play the hand differently especially when you are considering taking lines different from what your gameplan may have been. Thats why im also encouraging other people thoughts here and the lines they would take and why as well.

    And Your welcome :)
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,034 -
    Morgan_B wrote:
    Thanks to you and Split Suit for helping me learn.

    You're very welcome. Great response above Rello =)

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