Nut Flush x Full House on the River.

Julio CoelhoJulio Coelho Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
1/2 Live Game

Hero (about $750 deep) is on the CO ( :Kh :8h ) and Villain (about $150) is on the BTN

Action:
Villain puts a Stradle of $5 on the BTN, 6 players in to a pot of $30

Flop ($30)
:5h :5s :3h

Check all the way to Hero that donk bets $30
Fold all the way to Villain who calls.

Turn ($90)
:Td
Hero checks, Villain checks

River ($90)
:Ah

Hero checks, Villain bets $50, Hero raise to $100, Villain Calls with :Ad :5c

Have I made any mistakes here, or I just got unlucky?
Should I always raise with nut flush on this river? Or is there any reason that we should believe that Villain has (AA, TT, 55, 33 or even 53, T5, A5?)

I felt on the situation that Villain could have been drawing to a flush draw (suited connectors) or something like that... The check back on the Turn just haven't looked like she had trips and were giving me a free card...

Any thoughts?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The way do don't even describe the preflop action that put you in this spot suggests you don't understand that your first action is often the most determinative action you will take - as it is here.
  • Julio CoelhoJulio Coelho Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The way do don't even describe the preflop action that put you in this spot suggests you don't understand that your first action is often the most determinative action you will take - as it is here.

    The action was:
    BTN puts a straddle of $5
    SB calls
    BB calls
    MP calls
    MP calls
    CO calls
    BTN checks

    I summarized all this calling action with the following simple phrase to save your time: "Villain puts a Straddle of $5 on the BTN, 6 players in to a pot of $30"

    Again, what part of it I haven't understood?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭

    Again, what part of it I haven't understood?

    I don't think it's about the vocabulary used but moreso the reasoning behind your action.

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    Check all the way to Hero that donk bets $30

    It's not a donk bet as there was no previous-street aggressor
  • Julio CoelhoJulio Coelho Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »

    Again, what part of it I haven't understood?

    I don't think it's about the vocabulary used but moreso the reasoning behind your action.

    I didn't want to raise PF, to be on a position which I can be 3-betted and have to lay down this hand... Or just to Raise and get a lot of callers anyway... Then I just joined the rest to see a flop with good pot odds.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    edited November 29
    LeChiffre wrote: »

    Again, what part of it I haven't understood?

    I don't think it's about the vocabulary used but moreso the reasoning behind your action.

    I didn't want to raise PF, to be on a position which I can be 3-betted and have to lay down this hand... Or just to Raise and get a lot of callers anyway... Then I just joined the rest to see a flop with good pot odds.

    Who is gonna 3-bet you? Everyone has already limped into the pot aside from the button. They would have to limp-3bet, but does that happen so often to not open?(besides, if they do, it's usually a monster so you can safely fold anyway). If you're scared of BUT 3-betting you why aren't you scared of him opening after you limp and you throwing away 5 bucks?

    If you're raising to a size and get a lot of callers... consider raising bigger? Scoop a nice pot there and then or play (likely) in position with a decent hand against a capped range.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    Whenever I've had to ask if I misplayed a hand or just got unlucky, well, I already knew what the answer was. And it's usually "I've misplayed this hand.'

    If you're worried about being three bet and having to lay it down and THAT is why you are not raising here, you recognize this is not a very strong hand and should just lay it down. However, a raise here is going to put you IP on every street a good chunk of the time. You'll get 3 bet sometimes but then its easy to lay it down especially as Le Chiffre pointed out, when it comes from a limper.

    (As played you should be thanking your lucky stars here that V wasn't deeper and in a position to take a ton of more money from you. So I would say you actually got exceedingly lucky.)
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1
    Have I made any mistakes here, or I just got unlucky?
    There are so many mistakes that I can't find any action without a mistake...

    You need to seriously study poker, you're way off any good. (Don't cry, we all started from rock bottom.) As starter, I advise you to read with attention Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Cash Games by Jonathan Little. Very good to build the bases.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RCP, which provides these forums open to the public, might have a book or two, as well, don't you think, Red?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    Sure, but I don't know Core - the main RCP product for beginner - so I can't recommend it. And other RCP stuff (Pro RCP video, The Hand Reading Lab, books from Splitsuit / Hull / Soto / Miller) are already more intermediate - considering that @Julio Coelho seems to be at a very early stage of learning poker, I don't see this material as appropriate (yet).

    On the other side, I started with this Jonathan Little book, which was from great help to build my 1st poker thought, articulate the 1st concepts like ranges or position. Surely not the only material to recommend for a beginner, but one I can personally endorse.

    Also I would not not recommend a book, coach or author just because he is not RCP. Should we banish productions of Berkey, Polk, or Janda, (and Little) just because they are not RCP? I'd strongly disagree.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1
    Yes, that is what i said. Let's banish all other poker content. Even the names should be forbidden.

    Cmon, buddy.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @Julio Coelho: You've gotten a lot comments about possible confusion throughout the hand, but I haven't yet seen comments suggesting where some of that confusion might lie. I figured that I'd take a stab in hopes that it's helpful.

    Obviously, most of the comments have focused on your pre-flop flat-call rather than raise. I'll set that aside (I agree with those comments!) since that has been made clear already.

    FLOP
    It checks to you. What are possible hands that you could have here that you would bet? Flush draws, random 42 maybe, a 5. If you could have 42 then you could also have 53. Or 33s. Would you be betting with, say, 66 or 88? Probably not.

    So, it seems like you're sitting on a monster or on a draw. With that in mind, what hands are going to call or raise? In particular, if you are raised, what is your play? Flush draws work well with fold equity; if you're raised and then you shove, do you really have fold equity? Unlikely.

    Also, your bet-sizing will induce calls/raises from strong hands rather than from a wide range. This means, too, that you are going to reduce your fold equity on future streets.

    So, yes, you can bet. And you can bet pot. Just be sure that you recognize what that implies for calling ranges and how you'd respond to a raise. Obviously, getting folds is great!

    Check all the way to Hero that donk bets $30
    Fold all the way to Villain who calls.

    A note on terminology is important. Not to be nit-picky but rather because we are going to do our best to offer helpful comments. When terminology is off, then it makes it harder for us/me to read accurately. "Donk" is used incorrectly here, as was noted above.

    Also, when you write "fold all the way to V", it implies that there are lots of players between you and V. Rather, I thought that you were CO and V was BUT. When you wrote this, then I went back a couple of times to make sure that I read the history correct.

    Nope, not a big deal at all. But, as someone willing to help, making things as clear as possible is helpful for us/me.


    Turn ($90)
    :Td
    Hero checks, Villain checks


    Hmmm.... what hands that you would bet the pot on the flop would you check on the turn??

    River ($90)
    :Ah

    Hero checks, Villain bets $50, Hero raise to $100, Villain Calls with :Ad :5c

    ...and then, after checking the turn and having the flush card come, bet again on the river? It sure seems like a flush is a HUGE part of your range here, doesn't it?

    If you had, say, 42, would you really be betting here? If you had, say, 66 or 99 and really did bet the pot on the flop, would you be checking the turn and bluffing this river? A flush and even an ace gets there and beats you. If you had a 5, would you have checked the turn? And, if you had a boat, would you have checked the turn?

    So, it seems to me, at least, like a flush is a HUGE part of your range here.

    Now, if V raises, V is representing something that beats a flush. No, you can't really fold to his min-raise. But, it does raise the question of why you bet the river rather than checking to try induce a bet from a lesser hand (and likely a check-call). In addition, it goes back to your turn check. Had you bet the turn, then your holdings would include more than the flush.

    Yes, if you had 33 here, then you'd be screwed; the ace of hearts was the worst card in the deck for you. But, that's basing your thinking on the run-out rather than your play.

    Have I made any mistakes here, or I just got unlucky?
    Should I always raise with nut flush on this river? Or is there any reason that we should believe that Villain has (AA, TT, 55, 33 or even 53, T5, A5?)

    See above :).

    I felt on the situation that Villain could have been drawing to a flush draw (suited connectors) or something like that...

    Why??? Based on what???

    The check back on the Turn just haven't looked like she had trips and were giving me a free card...

    Really? Go back to your turn check -- seems pretty weak, doesn't it? If V had a monster, wouldn't it be better for V to try to let you catch up and/or stab the river?


    Just some initial thoughts...
  • ManofTroy1981ManofTroy1981 Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    What hand does the villain have when he calls on this flop? It is highly doubtful he would have a hand of 2, 4 or 4,6 which would have been folded pre-flop with the action described. He could have a pair of 3s which would already give him a full house. He could have AX, which would include a 3 or a 5.

    What hand would he lead with on the river with a flush on the board?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    What hand does the villain have when he calls on this flop? It is highly doubtful he would have a hand of 2, 4 or 4,6 which would have been folded pre-flop with the action described. He could have a pair of 3s which would already give him a full house. He could have AX, which would include a 3 or a 5.

    What hand would he lead with on the river with a flush on the board?

    I think that you might have misread the initial post. V was on the button and straddled. So, he could have any two cards since there was no raise before it got back.

    On the river, V didn't lead out. Hero bet on the river and then V raised.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,268 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Yes, that is what i said. Let's banish all other poker content. Even the names should be forbidden.

    Cmon, buddy.

    Right, I'm also writing the RCP anthem which everyone will be expected to sing before our annual meet-up at The Mirage and other official functions.

    That said, our CORE program is somewhat unique both in philosophy and in what I believe persuadeo once called its "irresponsibly low pricing." I think it would be ideal for @Julio Coelho to build a solid foundation to his poker skill set.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Julio CoelhoJulio Coelho Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited December 4
    Hey guys, thank you all for all the help!

    Specially those who spent a little of their time to actually give some insight about the hand!

    I'm actually a live tournament player (about a year of history), and I have got some pretty good results (you can say it's positive variance, I have played about 50 MTT live and cashed about 30% of them).

    My study background so far has been on Books (all Harrington on Holdem, Skalansky books, and Super System). Besides that I'm actually enrolled on the CORE program, just starting lvl 2.

    This hand was from I believe, the second time that I have played live cash game, on the end of the night it was a good result (started with a stack of $160 and finished the session on $750).

    @Red I'm definitely getting a copy of JShark book to get a foundation on cash game as well...

    Thank you all for the insights... Specially to @moishetreats for the long and detailed answer!
  • ManofTroy1981ManofTroy1981 Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    moishe treats - Hero checked on the river, Villain bet $50, then Hero re-raised to $100, so essentially it IS a lead bet.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    moishe treats - Hero checked on the river, Villain bet $50, then Hero re-raised to $100, so essentially it IS a lead bet.

    No. A "lead bet" is one that is made at the start of a round by someone who made the last bet or raise in the previous round.

    (Happy and willing to be corrected if that's wrong!)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,268 -
    moishe treats - Hero checked on the river, Villain bet $50, then Hero re-raised to $100, so essentially it IS a lead bet.

    No. A "lead bet" is one that is made at the start of a round by someone who made the last bet or raise in the previous round.

    (Happy and willing to be corrected if that's wrong!)

    According to Wikipedia lead is defined as. The player who makes the last bet or raise in a round of betting is said to have the lead at the start of the next round.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,268 -
    That said, a donk lead is in some sense a lead. So as usual I can see both sides of everything sigh.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    That said, a donk lead is in some sense a lead. So as usual I can see both sides of everything sigh.

    I don't think so... a "donk" bet, as I understand it, is an EP lead from someone who was not the last aggressor.

    A "lead bet" is an EP lead from someone who was the last aggressor.

    (Again -- willing to be corrected if I'm wrong!)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,268 -
    Right we're delving into the minutiae of semantics. "Lead bet" on its own def implies the bet was made by the last aggressor (they have the betting lead). But I know some people use the term "donk lead" as a synonym for "donk bet" because I got mired in a truly terrible thread on reddit on the topic.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Right we're delving into the minutiae of semantics. "Lead bet" on its own def implies the bet was made by the last aggressor (they have the betting lead). But I know some people use the term "donk lead" as a synonym for "donk bet" because I got mired in a truly terrible thread on reddit on the topic.

    Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation!

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