AA multiway - isolate donking whale on the flop?

LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
edited December 2018 in Live Poker Hands
€5-€5
5% rake, €25 cap
10-handed

Preflop
UTG (450) limps
UTG+1/Hero (covers) :AH: :AD: raises to 40
folds to CO (1000), calls
BU (1200) calls
folds to UTG, calls

Flop (170 - 4 players)
:5S: :6S: :7H:
UTG bets 50
Hero raises to 150

UTG is a HUGE aggro whale. Calls off extremely light and has very wide betting ranges: basically anything that somehow connects to the board.

Hero decides to raise to:
- Fold out equity from players behind. If hero calls they all get a great price to hit two pair/trips and/or their draw.
- Have a chance to have UTG for himself and stack him. Given the SPR with this player hero can comfortably get it in.

For what it's worth: hero was planning on checking flop. UTG's donk bet changed everything as he signaled that he somehow connected to the flop so hero saw an opportunity to take advantage of that.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    It's very possible that you're ahead of UTG. Small underbet from bad players are usually to "look where they are at".
    But I'm not really sure I want to raise when there are still deep CO and BU in the game, on a board which should give them a very pole advantage without further info on them.
    Do we raise/fold if CO or BU cold 3bet ? How do we play further street OOP to them if any of them call? And any 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, :SPADE: will be hard to play; and a :HEART: might take some FE away (against combos with bckd FD).

    Also note that CO and BU called a rather expensive (IMHO) open bet preflop which means either they might rather inelastic or they have a strong but capped merged range. But both shall not fold for 150 in a pot which was 170 at the beginning of the street. For that, I think that if you want to raise, you should size bigger (slightly less than pot bet, ~250€ ?), which also reduces the SPR on turn and allows you to shove good turn cards with AA.
    But again, not sure I want to play for stack on a board on which I've a pole disadvantage against 2 Villains.

    I think I prefer raising with AsXs than AA; as it allows us to raise a draw to the nuts, instead of raising against the nuts/draws to the nuts.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    So are you hoping to get whales stack in here? I guess its not too bad for less than 100bb, if deeper you may want to reconsider as there are a lot of bad cards that can come on turn and river. Not sure I wanna play a 400bb pot here.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    So are you hoping to get whales stack in here? I guess its not too bad for less than 100bb, if deeper you may want to reconsider as there are a lot of bad cards that can come on turn and river. Not sure I wanna play a 400bb pot here.

    Yes I would like to stack the whale rather than play an awkward OOP multiway pot where prospects of getting of showdown are very bad.

    And absolutely stack size is a huge factor. If he were as deep as me it would have been a different story altogether.
    Red wrote: »
    It's very possible that you're ahead of UTG. Small underbet from bad players are usually to "look where they are at".
    But I'm not really sure I want to raise when there are still deep CO and BU in the game, on a board which should give them a very pole advantage without further info on them.
    Do we raise/fold if CO or BU cold 3bet ? How do we play further street OOP to them if any of them call? And any 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, :SPADE: will be hard to play; and a :HEART: might take some FE away (against combos with bckd FD).

    Also note that CO and BU called a rather expensive (IMHO) open bet preflop which means either they might rather inelastic or they have a strong but capped merged range. But both shall not fold for 150 in a pot which was 170 at the beginning of the street. For that, I think that if you want to raise, you should size bigger (slightly less than pot bet, ~250€ ?), which also reduces the SPR on turn and allows you to shove good turn cards with AA.
    But again, not sure I want to play for stack on a board on which I've a pole disadvantage against 2 Villains.

    I think I prefer raising with AsXs than AA; as it allows us to raise a draw to the nuts, instead of raising against the nuts/draws to the nuts.

    I am indeed very sure I crush his range of hands. 4x-8x, flush draws, overpairs are all in his range and will continue when I raise.

    Very valid point about the raise sizing with the idea of getting it in easier on the turn. I agree that playing turns if CO/BU calls my raise is absolutely terrible, even worse than if I just called. Question is of course to what extent that weighs up against the prospect of stacking UTG in another branch of the tree. I find these things very hard to argue about.
    CO and BU tankfold, UTG shoves his remaining stack, I snap call. He had Q4o.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    RCP YouTube video by @Christian Soto which is very much like this situation and he's advocating raising.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    It's a good video.

    But I'd not raise always in your situation @LeChiffre . There are 2 major differences with your hand:
    - In the hand discussed by Soto, Hero is IP against 2 and faces a donk; here you're relatively OOP (IP against 1, OOP against 2) and you've 2 players still to act with their entire IP preflop range.
    - It's a 2 bet pot and not a 3bet, allowing more loose combos (esp. suited connectors and gapers) coming in, in a LP calling range.

    So in the hand discussed by @Christian Soto , I'd be very surprised to see a Villain playing a 3bet pot OOP with T7s or T8s. Maybe sometimes some SC, but except against 87s, AA is pretty good here - thus the equity advantage Soto is talking about.
    But in your hand, CO and BU can hold 76s, 65s, maybe 75s, maybe 76o. Plus others combo like 87s for TP+OESD. And :7H: means more combo draws like 8s7s, 9s7s, where it's not really the case on :TC: :8C: :7S: (or with a loose OOP 3bet calling range, and only for a bottom combo draw).

    Hence, IMHO, in your situation @LeChiffre , AA are against a stronger range - which has pole advantage. Worst: you're facing 2 of them.
    I agree about calling being gnnnnn and it's mostly either a fold or raise - a call is weak-ish and a too nice invitation to be squeezed. But not sure raising allows Hero to take the pot down often enough to be +EV ?
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    The video you shared is in a 3bet Pot vs. Villians that are older that likely are not raising and calling with connecters in a 3bet pot.

    What is your stack size? Are you 100 or 200 bigs deep? You need to be concerned about the players behind you (depending on how deep you are) Raising a donk vs. the Villian is pretty standard. He will have draws and combo draws quite a bit...let him call off with them.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 442 ✭✭✭
    I like your raise size. CO and BU are going to be inelastic with their draws but will likely raise you with 2pr + and then you have an easy fold. They are not likely to 3bet bluff with the preflop and flop action and them being in position.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    I like your raise size. CO and BU are going to be inelastic with their draws but will likely raise you with 2pr + and then you have an easy fold. They are not likely to 3bet bluff with the preflop and flop action and them being in position.

    That's exactly what I thought but couldn't phrase it well sadly.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    I agree with @Red - I didn't watch the whole video but right off the bat it's different since AA 3-bet preflop there.

    As to the hand, I think you're basically on the right track that raising him is worth consideration, but it's a tricky spot. You're offering UTG almost 4:1 immediate, and if anyone else calls, then everyone is getting a really good price. If I made it to that situation I wouldn't fold Q4 either. If I played I'd make it at least $200 which is not even a pot sized raise (that would be $320). If anyone else just calls, that sets up a nice shove on the turn with a brick (T-A and 2 non-spade). Notice that over half the deck you don't want to see, but who knows what will hit who. The whale might play with any piece of the board, but in this case the board is just so wet he might be right to do so.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    Raise size seems to be the biggest problem indeed. Doesn't allow me to maximize the probability of achievng what I want to achieve (isolating the whale)

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