Tough preflop spot

Steve Jones

Hi guys,

Tell me what you think of this spot.

1-2 NL

I have been at the table for about 4 hours, the game is playing pretty deep at this point and is getting kind of wild. More than a few times in the past hour 2 of the players are putting out blind bets of $30 preflop. These are not straddles, but non-live blind bets. 1 guy was doing this and then betting $100 post without looking at his cards. So yeah, the game is really good.

A new player came in and sat with $225, he took out black chips from his pocket, I think I have played with him before, but not too sure, he seems like an action player, but I have no hard evidence to back this up at this point.

Hero CO $860
UTG+2 (new guy) $225

I was dealt

UTG+2 calls, 2 more calls from mp players with 200ish stacks, I make it $25, Button goes all in for $34, SB $750 calls, UTG+2 makes it $105, folds to me. Hero?

LoveFish

The question is what do you think villain would be limp bombing with from UTG + 2? What hands would you do this with? Your options are all in or fold at this point. I think best case scenario you are flipping. Probably fold in my opinion from an unknown viallian. We have only 25$ invested, you get the information for the next spot by seeing his cards as the other player is all in.

Steve Jones

Ty for the reply, I will post results of what my decision was after more have replied. I dont want to say any more because I dont want the comments to be influenced.

Thanks

Jordan Power

In the games I play in, a limper in EP who then re-raises usually has KK or AA. This happened four times in my last session and I see this all the time from weak players who are scared to raise in EP and then go to the flop MW with a premium starting hand.

I've heard the following logic describe this play: If someone else raises, I can reraise an already bigger pot and have a great chance to get it heads up. If no one else raises, I only have 1 BB invested so far so if it gets cracked, I lose less money. And, of course, the standard trope of weak players that their aces ALWAYS get cracked usually follows in short order.

However, I have a clear bias here given what stands for common strategy in my games. With no information on villain, I think it's hard to call here.The pot is $202 and you need to invest $80 more, so you're getting good odds with TT, methinks. But I think V is going to shove most flops with a stack of less than 1/2 the pot. So really isn't the decision whether we want to play for all V's stack with our TT? That's how I'm thinking of it. And I'm going to fold with no information on V.

Steve Jones

I agree the decision is to play for $225 or not. I assume he is jamming any flop.

In The Dark

Jordan Power wrote: »

In the games I play in, a limper in EP who then re-raises usually has KK or AA.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
........THIS

Steve Jones

Thanks, I did fold, but the result of the hand made me question my decision. Glad I folded though, because now it seems clear it was correct.

So this is what happened. The guy in sb with 750 called 105. The flop came

Sb goes all in for 650ish

Sb shows
Utg shows
Button shows

So yea, I woulda won sb's whole 750 stack set over set.

I got up and left after that hand booking a nice 550 win.

TheGameKat

I'm not exactly known for my gamble, but in a wild game I think I go with TT. Pretty sure it's on Ed's list.

Steve Jones

I dont know, I just didnt feel like flipping a coin for $225, figured there would be better spots. If I knew sb was gunna call, then of course I would have called

TheGameKat

Yup you were at the table, I wasn't, That's important.

Steve Jones

I felt like I was leaving a juicy game, but I had played for about 4 or 5 hours already, and the result of that hand tilted me pretty hard. I figured I shouldnt play now because I would make some kind of mistake, so that was the last hand I played.

Jordan Power

Rarely a bad move to get up from a table you no longer are positive you can play effectively at.

persuadeo

Knowing when and why to move away from player pool strategies into making real decisions is a big part of moving up and improving at this game. I really wish we had not seen the results of this one so we could discuss it in good faith.

Steve Jones

persuadeo wrote: »

Knowing when and why to move away from player pool strategies into making real decisions is a big part of moving up and improving at this game. I really wish we had not seen the results of this one so we could discuss it in good faith.

What do you honestly think of the fold?

persuadeo

You are isolating limps, essentially overcharging potentially weak ranges - hence the "punishment" we like to talk about - meaning your range is, yes uncapped, but also wide, often even too wide. You'll always be perceived to be lighter here than you should by an observant player, so your continuing standards should in turn reflect this. It's very different from a situation where you are the EP opener and now you face a committing raise.

So now you are in the upper portions of your range but on the cusp, 99-JJ. To fight against being squeezed off your equity or in this case, limp raised, you need to consider start playing back with your cusp hands because they become more valuable. Seidman wrote about this in his Diminishing Medium Value Category chapter.

Now a shortstack has also gone in, creating a bigger pot. The shortstack is looking for pairs and broadways to double with - wide not tight. This is incentive for any of the remaining actors to go lighter, as the ev of their raises goes up.

It's not that i am saying in certain pools this is not always AA et al. I know all about that, and that players in certain games aren't really doing anything more complicated that waiting for high value pieces of plastic. So, I can't speak to your respective pools, but i can guarantee that every limp raise in the world is not a 1% hand. Anyway, the results are not really that important. What is: unless a player is thinking about all these things, he can't really say he made a good decision, win or lose.

Steve Jones

Completely agree, I was pretty sure this was not AA, KK only from this particluar limp reraiser. He did not look like an omc, he was going in his pocket for black chips. As I said before, I had no evidence to back up the fact that he was an action player at this time though.

I figured his range was 99-AA, JQs- AKs, KQo-AJo, and maybe some sprinkling of other suited connectors, but not too many.

At the end of the day I just figured at best case I was flipping for $225 so I folded. But your post does make perfect sense, as this game was playing loose and deep. There were no omc's at the table.

I took the low variance route, cause Im broke haha.

Steve Jones

I meant KQo- AKo in the range also, made a typo.

jeffnc

For me this is a feel thing based on how the table is reacting. When the game gets wild, you play differently obviously, but there are no straddles or blind bets or raises this hand apparently. So it depends on how much of that overall vibe carries over into the "regular" hands of the evening. If everyone is keeping the same spirit on all hands, then normally this is a borderline shove for me (JJ being a clear shove). On the other hand there are some games that seem to revert from wild to normal depending on whether the large blind bets are out there. So if this is a standard weak player limp reraise, then it's a fold. Based on the result it looks like the craziness carries over, so I would have leaned toward playing. I'm also always curious if players are set mining in this situation, or just hoping everyone else has AK :)

Steve Jones

For me, I would have shoved QQ plus here and AKs, yes I know I am a nit.