How to study PLO ?

RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
Hi everybody

I recently got into PLO. I'm reading my 1st book and start playing (spewing) online. Now I want to improve by reviewing some hands - I can easily see that I'm playing too wide and making med / not nutted hands going too far, but it's still hard to really have a grasp.

So I'd like to know:
- In NHLE there are some pre-set ranges. Do you know ranges for PLO as well (I could use as basis) ? I've just read some general stuff about type of hands, which is for the moment too general I think.
- Is there a similar tool as flopzilla to analyze PLO hands? As I played some hands (surely spewy by playing them too strong / far), I'd need a tool to make street by street analysis, if there is any.

Thanks
Tagged:

Best Answers

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 Accepted Answer
    For your information: I've asked Kasino Krime which software he uses for his PLO studies, and he was kind enough to reply:
    hey man! Monkersolver, Odds Oracle, and PokerJuice are the primary ones I use

Answers

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Read Hwang's PLO "Big Play" book to get you started. That's probably not the strategy you're going to ultimately have, but it's a good place to start. For example, it will explain the inherent advantage a hand like 9875 has over a hand like J986. Once you understand that, you can construct your own ranges depending on the game type and player type.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,840 -
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Read Hwang's PLO "Big Play" book to get you started. That's probably not the strategy you're going to ultimately have, but it's a good place to start. For example, it will explain the inherent advantage a hand like 9875 has over a hand like J986. Once you understand that, you can construct your own ranges depending on the game type and player type.

    Yeah that's where I was going.

    Doesn't JNandez live in Switzerland?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Equilab has an Omaha version. Which book are you reading?

    Ha good to know. I'll look deeper in Equilab

    I'm studying with the PLO Quickpro Manual by John "Kasino Krime" Beauprez. (I've also acquired "Win1K", as it was in an special offer package.)

    It's a pretty dense book - at least for me who has 0 PLO knowledge - , with analyzed HH at the end as well. It's like reading Nietzsche: easy to read, tough to understand.
    Plus, as proof of coaching quality, KK quotes a lot of books and authors he read (like Hwang, @jeffnc ) as references; to me this shows that he knows the theoretical side of PLO and is a proof of coaching quality (putting references above selling his stuff).
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Read Hwang's PLO "Big Play" book to get you started. That's probably not the strategy you're going to ultimately have, but it's a good place to start. For example, it will explain the inherent advantage a hand like 9875 has over a hand like J986. Once you understand that, you can construct your own ranges depending on the game type and player type.

    Yes, and Kasino Krime also explain how hands goes around - and bases his thoughts on book like Hwang. He explains how wraps goes, how suitedness is important and then is matters more, why is JT97 better than JT98 or J987, etc.

    But then, it still general sayings; there are not really "ranges" in the same way as in NHLE.
    With a HUD, if someone is 50/30, 30/20 or 60/40, how to understand that in range aka what hands and/or behavior should I expect ?
    After so many hours on flopzilla, I can see a 20% range, a 15% range, a 3% 3bet range, linear or pole, etc. But here PLO - maybe because I'm the very start of learning the game - I really don't see the connection between % and range.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,840 -
    I think when you combine preflop equities running closer with a less educated playing population it's just all a bit fuzzier, at least when you're ranging opponents. So one player's 20% range will look a lot different from another's. That said, there are now PLO solvers and my sense is the current experts are doing some very sophisticated work. The odds of this being applied in the games I play in are, give or take, 0.

    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Doesn't JNandez live in Switzerland?

    Well, I didn't know who that was until I just looked it up :)

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    In PLO/8, and especially Big O, you can usually tell what someone might have for the low, but it becomes impossible for most players to know what they have for their high hand.

    (based on preflop action)

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I'm studying with the PLO Quickpro Manual by John "Kasino Krime" Beauprez. (I've also acquired "Win1K", as it was in an special offer package.)

    Good lord, that's an expensive set of books. You're looking at something close to $4,000. $500 for the Out Of Position scenarios, $1,500 for 3Bet pot scenarios - I mean, wow.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    I'm studying with the PLO Quickpro Manual by John "Kasino Krime" Beauprez. (I've also acquired "Win1K", as it was in an special offer package.)

    Good lord, that's an expensive set of books. You're looking at something close to $4,000. $500 for the Out Of Position scenarios, $1,500 for 3Bet pot scenarios - I mean, wow.

    I didn't got all of them :-) ; only PLO QuickPro Manual and PLO Win1K.
    OOP, 3bet etc. were also sold off, but the offer wasn't as deep as QuickPro Manual and Win1K (these 2 were smth like 70% off ! ) and it was (still is) too advanced material for me. So I didn't buy them.
  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    @Red

    Not sure if this is still relevant considering what you're studying and there ain't no one buying my books, but I think of ranges in Omaha in terms of form.

    If I'm playing a 15% range UTG I mean the top 15% suited A rundown hands (AxTx98 and up), top 15% double paired hands (8877 and up, QQ66 and up), and top 15% rundowns with a gap at top and top 15% rundowns with a gap at bottom and etc.

    Of course - as you suggested - one can go completely nuts trying to think about this but I find this a useful way to think about PLO ranges.

    I use the propokertools ranking

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,795 -
    I recently started my first real study of PLO.

    I am in love

    My only resource so far has been Hwang's first book. I started into the sequel trilogy. Honestly, just the first book was enough to get me to beat the 1-2 5 bring-in at Venetian, Wynn and Aria. The few times I have sat $x-$5 with $10 rock I also could see I was a favorite in the game.

    I have essentially moved to PLO this year and am loving it. Nothing fancy and the opponents are just beating themselves. I find the skill level at PLO is significantly below skill level at NLHE.

    While Hwang's trilogy is good and I am working through it, these advanced moves are not needed to beat these stakes.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    @Doug Hull : you're talking about "Pot-Limit Omaha Poker" of 2008, right ?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2019
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    While Hwang's trilogy is good and I am working through it, these advanced moves are not needed to beat these stakes.

    Agreed to an extent, however most players will find themselves in some interesting SPR situations that are not really "advanced plays" so much as simply situations that will occur regardless depending on effective stack sizes, straddle sizes, and preflop raise sizes. To wit, Advanced Pot Limit Omaha, Volume I, Part II, read all the SPR sections.

    I've really enjoyed Hwang's books very much, and maybe I'll write a book (set) review. But for now, the important thing to remember is the subtitle of the book - "The Big Play Strategy". Keeping that in mind, now go look at "The New SPR Chart" on p. 96 of Advanced Vol. I, and there you will see "Big Play Territory". This should put his first book in context. Ultimately it can get pretty boring (but not unprofitable) playing simply that tight strategy because it assumes you're going to be prepared when all the money goes in, deep. Few hands can stand up to this amount of pressure.

    One of the great things about his first book is that it also contains a great section on PLO/8. Between that and our very own Red Chip published book on PLO8/Big O (review pending), you will be very well prepared to play that game well too.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    After so many hours on flopzilla, I can see a 20% range, a 15% range, a 3% 3bet range, linear or pole, etc. But here PLO - maybe because I'm the very start of learning the game - I really don't see the connection between % and range.

    Yes, and there are hints from Hwang at how balance can be achieved without playing weak hands, as you might have to do in Holdem. This ultimately comes down to the larger number of 2 card combinations in PLO. For example, on p. 61 of Advanced Vol. 1, he discusses a hand involving 8643 suited, which was raised preflop, with a flop of Q75 rainbow, which at first looks pretty awesome, but in fact is kind of crap if any real money starts going in.

    Now, you might think you'd have to play hands such as 8643 so that you can credibly represent a hand on a flop of Q75. But that simply isn't true. You can hit this flop even harder if you had 9864 instead (not to mention QQxx).

    The point being, there are different ranges that can "hit" the same flop, but some are better than others. So yes it can be quite difficult to put someone on a range, but you will have the same advantage. And if you fold 8643 and play 9864, you will hit more or less the the same flops but have an advantage over a lot of other players.

    Also my preflop raises and calls tend to be very situational, and what I showdown might be very confusing to someone trying to "put me on a hand" (wait, does he raise aces or doesn't he? etc.) It depends on how much of my stack is going in, my position, the opponents and how they play, my chance of securing the virtual button, how many players I expect or can limit it to, isolation if possible, etc. So you can't pin a percentage down to a range. I think it would be more like correlating to overall hand quality, which is harder to evaluate in PLO than in Holdem, which is simpler (you ought to be able to tell how someone values pocket pairs, aces, broadway cards, and suited connectors.)
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    I too added PLO , already had PLO8 and Big0. hangs book was a big help.
    A couple of observations... st low stakes PLO most were losing NLHE players that moved to the easier and more volatile PLO. (Where they are still losing long term but the big swings hide it and feed their adrenalin). One huge key to the game is the "run it twice" rules. One casino I play the rule his any pot over 1k, the game or stakes don't matter. At l ou w stakes PLO thus makes the game less volatile and you can bluff a lot more. Another casino I play the rule is any timed take game can run it twice. This makes the PLO game very volatile as the players will buy in short and gamble.

    Probably the biest tip I learned was use 3 bets in position as much as reasonable. And all but never 3 bet from the blinds
  • Mr. DontMr. Dont Red Chipper Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    A couple of observations... st low stakes PLO most were losing NLHE players that moved to the easier and more volatile PLO. (Where they are still losing long term but the big swings hide it and feed their adrenalin).

    I was planning to dive into PLO this year, but I should stick to imporve NLHE. Best advice for NLHE player thinking about jumping to PLO.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Dont wrote: »
    I was planning to dive into PLO this year, but I should stick to imporve NLHE. Best advice for NLHE player thinking about jumping to PLO.

    ??
    Variety is the spice of life my friend. The more games you know, the more profitable games become available to you. Holdem is generally getting harder. It was easy 15 years ago. Omaha is already starting to progress. Nothing like playing Omaha against Holdem players just getting started!

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    @Mr. Dont best advice is remeber it is a totally different game. Also despite how most play, PLO is a post flop game. I liked Tri Nguyen book on transitioning to PLO from NLHE as a start point.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,795 -
    Red wrote: »
    @Doug Hull : you're talking about "Pot-Limit Omaha Poker" of 2008, right ?

    Yes, that is the one.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • solarcoastersolarcoaster Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Curious @Red if you still play PLO or made the switch back to NLHE?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can only play one game at a time?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    Curious @Red if you still play PLO or made the switch back to NLHE?

    Because there are almost no game in Europe and none close to my place, and that I don't like playing online, I unfortunately couldn't really be involved in PLO
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,840 -
    Red wrote: »
    Curious @Red if you still play PLO or made the switch back to NLHE?

    Because there are almost no game in Europe and none close to my place, and that I don't like playing online, I unfortunately couldn't really be involved in PLO
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Surely Europe is the home of PLO?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Surely Europe is the home of PLO?

    Not that I know....
    I played in all casinos in Prague (CZ) - my favorite city so far - , as well as in Brussels (BE), Budapest (HU), Baden (CH), Montreux (CH), Riga (LV) and San Ġiljan (MT)*.
    I went in Berlin (D) too, but it was long ago.
    Mostly miss on my list Baden-Baden (D), Barcelona (E), London (UK) and Rozdanov (CZ). Maybe Paris (F), but heard very average review about their games...
    In all of these places, I've seen only once a PLO game running, in Prague, but yet it was running because 4 friends traveling wanted to play PLO and were able to convince the floorman to open a table for them.
    So all casinos, either they have a PLO-waiting list but no name on it or (more often) they don't even provide PLO and only NHLE.

    But in general live poker is also not that big in Europe compare to US ... there are more games running at once in Las Vegas than in all the cities I've mentioned combined... !
    Maybe because many countries forbid poker and/or games are too expensive, so they either play home games or online? Can't say...

    * I visited 3 casinos in San Ġiljan... yet already had really a hard time to even find ONE NHLE cash game. But I went during low season (Jan-Feb), and apparently poker/casino may only run during high season of summer. So my observation about Malta might be biased despite the good poker reputation.


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,840 -
    Okay must be my home-town bias showing; I grew up in London.
    Moderation In Moderation

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file