Playing deeper than 100bb - which adjustments do you make?

AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
edited December 2018 in General Concepts
I'm pretty confident playing with 100bb in online cash games. When I have built a decent stack (let's say I'm 200bb deep effective) I don't really know what to do in different spots.
Let's assume we have :Kc :Kh and we 3b against a BTN (reg), he calls. By playing so deep he can easily set-mine against my "standard 3b sizing" I use when I'm 100bb deep. How do you approach those spots?

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,073 -
    Couple of our general resources:

    https://redchippoker.com/how-play-huge-deep-stacks-cash-games/
    https://redchippoker.com/playing-deep-stack-live-poker/

    The chapter in "The Course" on the topic is also good, IMO.

    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The deck isn't fully in play until you are deep, past 200 bbs. 100 bb poker is a convenience for management, online or off, not a player's standard in a big bet game actually called No Limit. So the real question is, what have I been doing playing short stacked that I can now scuttle?
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The deck isn't fully in play until you are deep, past 200 bbs. 100 bb poker is a convenience for management, online or off, not a player's standard in a big bet game actually called No Limit. So the real question is, what have I been doing playing short stacked that I can now scuttle?

    The last thing we want is having the second best hand playing that deep (I know this is true for 100bb effective as well but reverse implied odds are getting more important now). If we had KJs in our 3b bluffing range, we should rather take a hand like A4s.
    As stacks are getting deeper we should have fewer combos of hands that can 3b/4b/5b for value (and also fewer bluffs). Am I on the right track here?

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Right track, wrong direction.

    So I should be bluffing even more since villain is more likely to be afraid playing deep stacks?

    If I'm wrong once again, please show me the right direction ;)
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    I take one of two approaches and mix them up.
    At times, I take a pot control stance and play small ball.
    Other times, I increase the size of my bets to get a better SPR. My 3bets are generally 4-5 X.

    For example, in a 1/2 game with $400 stacks...Villian raises to $12 or $15 and I will make it $45 or $50 to go. This gets the SPR at the right ratio if he calls.

    ($100 Pot with $400 Effective Stack)
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
    The problem is that I will never get to a SPR of 4 in online cash games in a 3bet pot since the openraise size is mostly 3x...
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The problem is that I will never get to a SPR of 4 in online cash games in a 3bet pot since the openraise size is mostly 3x...

    Right, nor at any real depth. So what kinds have hands will allow you continuance? What's really going on when there are actual streets to play that can feature more than one bet going in? (And for that matter, why do they open to 3x and how does it all connect together nicely?)
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    I actually take a different approach here. In the games I play, mostly 1-2 1-3 and some 2-5...deep players do it so badly that the adjustments are pretty simple.

    They think they have huge implied odds so they call bigger bets with a wider range, and then mostly try to hit and chase a fair amount. So you need to raise bigger, pre- and often bet bigger p flop and sometimes the turn. Look for pair and draw type hands that they can have you beat...and bet big into these hands..

    SPR's are not that important....cutting SPR's down only matter if your against players who play different parts of there range the same and aggressivly....here players often don't bet big without big hands....or bluff way to much with draws...either way spr's rarely matter. As players are scared of being out drawn for a large pot, the almost never slow play...so hand reading becomes easy, deep/ and multiway....


    Just remember they may be more conformable deep (or seem to be as they reload 3 times), but they are more scared of making a bad call or letting you get there then your are. Most deep regs, hope to make a big hand and get paid off thats why the are deep.


    In the hand above with KK....3 bet bigger, do it with KK but also other hands. most players will not put pressure on you unless they get a big hand so you can just make your bigger bet (they can still set mine), and don't pay them off.

    If they are straight forward bet bet bet fold to a big raise....If they bluffy check to induce....and remember even if you pay some bozo off wihen they hit a set and play it well (they won't but maybe) they can't set mine against your AQ A5s...type hands....which you should also be 3 betting.

    Players do fairly Rootementary hand reading so be careful of big bluffs when draws have missed....this is where the check call check call, check call your big bluff comes in...flip it sometimes...and thin value bet these rivers thin and large...again player dependent, but the players who do this can't help taliking about how smart the are so it becomes pretty obvious....

    And yes if you make my adjustments you become very exploitable, but if they are not exploiting this don't worry about it.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    persuadeo wrote: »
    So different from what?

    Trying to use (come up with) strategies that combat good deep stack players or at least solid aggressive (somewhat balanced) players. I try to come up with strategies that exploit the mistakes bad deep stack players make and just try to play primarily with them as thats what I generally find.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Playing with only 100bb sux. If you get AA or KK after flop 3 bet you are never folding for less than 100bb, so its just no brainer stuff. I play in 1-2 live games where I always buy in for 300 (the max) and top up back to 300 if I get down to 200. I really dont feel comfortable till I get to about $500 or 250bb.

    Once at 250bb I can take advantage of other deep players at the table who play awful. Example, I am on the button, or even just late position. Say I have a pair like 77, or a suited broadway like KQ, or a hand like 89s. I play tons of pots where someone will raise to 12 from ep, get 2 calls and some stack of like 600 will raise to like 35. I already know that all the callers will call the small 35 bet, so I will call and see a cheap flop where the pot will already be around 150.

    If I hit, I always get paid by one of the shorter stacks, and if the big stack is a nit that waited for kk or aa for 2 hours he will not fold either. This is how I personally make most of my money playing poker

    If I get a hand like QQ+ then I will make a big 3 bet or raise, but I will proceed with great caution after flop if unimproved. Of course this all depends on the reads I have on who calls my bets.

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