Should I gamble to give a Loose image?

Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
Weird question...although probably looking to justify playing badly...but..maybe not.

I've heard you have to give action to get action...how far do we take this?


Here was my thought...what about making a slightly -EV decision with the understanding you are trading for +EV decisions.

This hand happened last night with a guy that was playing strange making blind small bets..calling raises..etc.

The hand itself is kind of irrelevant....but, I raised a donk bet on the flop and turn with a Jack high flush draw.

:Js :5s Was my hand on the button in a limped pot.
Villain makes it $7 and after 3 callers I call.

($35) Flop: :Ts :4s :3c

Villain bets $5 which he had been doing every hand. Two players call and I make it $25 looking to bluff the turn if I don't hit. Villain and one other weak player call.

Villain blind bets $5 in the dark.

($110) Turn: :Ad

One player calls and I make it $40.

Villain shoves for $112 and the other player folds.

Now here is the question.....

We have a pot of $110 + $40 +$152 = $302
It is $112 to call which is -EV in the long term....
I need 27% and I'm only getting 20% with the pot odds.

However, how does this effect my image and the game if I call and lose/win?


I'm taking a 7.% equity loss to hopefully gain it back in future hands at the table with having a looser image than I actually am....

I'm prepared to defend myself in the beating I should take.

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    I think any strategy that starts with 'hey I'm going to ignore the math here' is probably in for a bad time. You're also making an implicit assumption that having your image being seen as loose and gambly is a good thing.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    I think any strategy that starts with 'hey I'm going to ignore the math here' is probably in for a bad time. You're also making an implicit assumption that having your image being seen as loose and gambly is a good thing.

    Yep, there is the Rub. Not wanting to be a Nit..not wanting to be a gambler...
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    I think I should add to the discussion...
    Villian shoved with KK after I raised the A on the turn. (he's a goofy player who will shove a missed AK on the river) Aren't I giving away equity to encourage his bad play against me specifically?

    Like I'm giving him 7% and the next time this happens he will be giving me 22%.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    Stop playing preflop trash

    Chose better flops to loosen up your image - IF this could gives you any advantage.

    If Villain play "what the f*ck let's shove", focus on value hands.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Red - ITS SUITED!!! LOL

    What about swapping equity? I want to be the guy he is shoving with....no case for being the guy that gives up some equity when behind and then crushes when ahead?

    If we get in these spots repeatedly, wouldn't I end up making a big profit?

    Obviously the math is wrong, but what about implied future pots? Does this exist?

    How many times will he shove into being crushed before he stops shoving on me..which I don't want him to stop....
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    someone likes setting his money on fire :)
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    Michael E wrote: »

    If we get in these spots repeatedly, wouldn't I end up making a big profit?

    Obviously the math is wrong, but what about implied future pots? Does this exist? .

    I missed this concept in CORE....

  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 67 ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    The best way to give off a loose image at the table is by talking. Just have conversations with people at the table and also make sure to make comments when you bet/raise. My favourite thing to do, is when there are limpers in the pot. Say “ I have to raise now, to punish the limpers”. You were going to raise anyway but you are giving a thin illusion of being loose. After enough times people don’t believe you anymore. Also adding in things such as “raisy daisy”. I also play a Tag style but I talk a ton at the table when playing 1/2 or 1/3, not so much at 2/5. Speech play in my opinion is an easy way of appearing loose even though your actually tight. People think you have been playing more hands than you actually have because your presence at the table has been felt. Rather than being the guy who has headphones on not interacting with anyone.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    @LoveFish I agree with this wholeheartedly. I make a point to be extremely conversational while playing (also helps me enjoy the game more). But you're right: talking a ton makes you seem loose. As long as one has the discipline to stay on their strategy, this is a better option than becoming loose to tighten up later.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    @LoveFish I agree with this wholeheartedly. I make a point to be extremely conversational while playing (also helps me enjoy the game more). But you're right: talking a ton makes you seem loose. As long as one has the discipline to stay on their strategy, this is a better option than becoming loose to tighten up later.

    Agree with talking!
    I've added that to my game and was discussing this yesterday. Not only do you seem more active (even if it is just speech), it makes the game so much more enjoyable! I'm glad the games on TV seem to be about the social aspect so much more today than tanking for minutes on every decision with your headphones on.

  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    someone likes setting his money on fire :)

    Don't ya think playing J5 suited in a multi-way limped pot OTB is better for your image than folding for $2?

    I feel like that would be somewhat standard. Anyone with thoughts on that? I would NEVER call a raise with it..(Then I did lol)

    Although, Boy am I nitty in my small blind.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    I ran some math on this, tell me if I'm way off.

    Let's say there are two times I am going to call this All IN by Villain.

    One, with the flush draw where I will win 20% of the time.

    (.8 X -$112) + (.2 x 306) = -$28.40 Loss

    The other time, I will call with two pair or TPGK.

    (.05 x -$112) + (.95 x 306) = $285.10 Gain.

    It's not even close...if I can encourage him to keep taking these shots with my by splitting slightly -EV calls vs. his GIANT -EV shoves, I am going to make huge profit, no?

    If I only call with Top Two or better, eventually, vs. ME he won't be making huge mistakes against me ....I have to give him some equity advantages to reward his bad play.

    Thoughts?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    You don't need to actually give away equity to give off a good image in this game. You will have other opportunities to do better. Since some of the other players are weak, they have fundamental misunderstandings of the math of poker. Therefore, you can pick spots where you're actually about break even that will still give off a gambly image.

    You already know the math as evidenced by your post. So simply look for better math spots. For example, if you have the nut flush draw and $100 left with a $100 pot against 2 opponents, just shove. If you get called, you're OK. If they fold, better. It's a freeroll (they're either going to fold which is +EV, or both will call which is +EV, or only one calls which is 0 EV). If one person calls, this is the same as them betting $100 into a $100 pot to you, which is 2:1 with 2 cards to go. They will simply assume you're doing some crazy gambling.

    I once played a hand where I flopped an open ended straight flush draw against a player who everyone at the table knew had AA/KK. He bet and I shoved and he called. Another player at the table, for whom my preliminary read was "strong player", said "Wow, you know he has AA there. All in with just a draw isn't good!" Just a draw! ha So most of the players were worse than him, so again this is a situation where I got perceived as gambly when in fact I was the favorite in the hand.

    It only takes a few of these hands to give you an image people will remember for a long time. You will never be seen as a maniac, but you will be "one of them" since you get "gambly".
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    Michael E wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    someone likes setting his money on fire :)

    Don't ya think playing J5 suited in a multi-way limped pot OTB is better for your image than folding for $2?

    I feel like that would be somewhat standard. Anyone with thoughts on that? I would NEVER call a raise with it..(Then I did lol)

    Although, Boy am I nitty in my small blind.

    I'm folding junk. What do you expect by seeing a flop with J5s? What is your plan to win money in the long run with a junky hand against multiple opponents?

    As pointed out by @jeffnc , if I need to loosen up my image - which is pretty rare because I'm playing usually pretty aggro, especially draws - I'd chose my spot. I'd not limp a trash hand, I'd open or 3bet with - only if I know it's +EV aka I chose the right time (position) and the right Villain (weak-ish). Always with a plan.
    Michael E wrote: »
    I ran some math on this, tell me if I'm way off.

    Let's say there are two times I am going to call this All IN by Villain.

    One, with the flush draw where I will win 20% of the time.

    (.8 X -$112) + (.2 x 306) = -$28.40 Loss

    The other time, I will call with two pair or TPGK.

    (.05 x -$112) + (.95 x 306) = $285.10 Gain.

    It's not even close...if I can encourage him to keep taking these shots with my by splitting slightly -EV calls vs. his GIANT -EV shoves, I am going to make huge profit, no?

    If I only call with Top Two or better, eventually, vs. ME he won't be making huge mistakes against me ....I have to give him some equity advantages to reward his bad play.

    Thoughts?

    I'm at work so without flopzilla to crunch your numbers. What I see at first sight is:
    -> winning 20% with flush draw is biased
    First you need to win. Maybe you're facing a better FD (esp. bad AXs)
    Second 20% equity means all your outs are able to come. But in MW you can't expect everybody not having a FD or a bckd FD. Fewer outs = fewer FD equity
    Last but not least: even if you win, you've to win enough money to be +EV in the long run. So you also have to take in account the time you hit your flush but nobody pays you.

    -> How do you hit TPGK with J5s ?? 543 / 542 / 532 flops ? Your TP 5X is very vulnerable lol

    -> If you hit top 2P it's only on J54, J53 and J52 flops. Meaning that you still have to avoid many outs - against FD, PP and ev. better 2P.

    -> Again, if you hit 2P, how do you expect to double up ?! Do you see your Villain turning crazy on J53r with their limp range ?

    -> And don't forget you don't hit 2P+ that often

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