Basic-ish C-Bet issues

TooncesTDCTooncesTDC Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
1-3 game. About $170 stack. I have JJ in the small blind. Button seems reasonably intelligent, but limps button. I raise to 15. Only button calls.

($30 pot after rake) Flop is Kh Tc 5d.

I bet 15. Button Calls.

($60 pot) Turn is 6c.

I bet 25. Button Calls.

($110 pot) River is 4h.

I check. River Bets 70. I call.

Comments

  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    You only started the hand with about 55 big blinds, why not top up? When you have such a short stack it make it much tougher to play the hand. I hate only having 100bb. You never said what the effective stacks were, and I am assuming you are either on the sb or bb.

    15 pre seems ok, 15 flop seems ok, but when button calls, I think you need to check turn and consider check calling, or check folding depending on the buttons sizing and tendencies.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Then start with the basics themselves: why are you about to take whatever action you are about to take.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very awkward stack size to play a hand like JJ for 3 streets of poker.

    c-betting is simply a special case of betting, and you've done a lot of that in this hand, so the thought process should be about the same for each. So the basics of betting are, how does my opponent play? how does he perceive me? what hand ranges does he have at each stage? what is my equity against that range? what range do I have at each stage? what are probabilities he might fold or call given the bet size? what price am I laying him? what effective stack sizes remain? how does this affect my image and future play at the table?
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Live, I'd make it $18 to go. Most people that limp, will call $15 automatically. $18-$20 narrows down their range, especially out of position. People limp button with good holdings...for whatever reason, people don't raise the button live that often 9 handed. (at least in Chicago)

    Same with the $15 bet. Those end up being auto-calls so often live, which is great when you are value betting but terrible when you are lost in the hand.
    Check the flop or the Turn or Bet larger.

    Reasonably intelligent signals a competent player. Competent players might take your small bets as weakness (which they are unless you always bet this way)

    Signs of weakness get big bets on the River with AT to take the pot down.

    Live players love calling small bets with all types of hands.
  • TooncesTDCTooncesTDC Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    As for the buy in, the typical stack at this game seems about $200 and a max buy-in of $300.

    The player I'm playing hasn't been at the table long but looks in his 30s and smarter and not a degenerate. In Seattle, that often means more TAGgy than average. It's my first pot with him.

    I suppose he sees my range as 77+/AJ+/KQ/A9s+/KTs+/QJs

    I'm in the small blind and pre-flop seems pretty standard. On the flop, this feels like a hand that there aren't a lot of hands in his range I need to protect against, thus a comparatively low C-bet. I'm a bit thrown by the button limp. I don't imagine that there are a lot of Kings in his range, but I can see some Ts, small and medium pairs, QJ, and suited connectors.

    On the turn, I was a little worries about a free card with a flush and wasn't fond of my choices if I checked, so I bet small for similar reasons as on the flop and got called.

    On the river, he didn't hear my check and after a long wait, someone told him that I checked and he immediately went to his stack. Not sure what I glean off of it. The river call was mostly based on my perceived lack of kings in his range and thinking he may be betting a Ten here along with any bluff bets. Not sure how reasonable that is.

    I definitely think I may have a leak of calling rivers like this too much.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    After this guy calls flop, you cant be thinking about 3 streets of value. So you will be checking for 1 street at least. Check turn from now on in this spot, keeps pot smaller. If this guy bets a decent amount on turn after you check then fold. If he checks turn then river pot is much smaller than as played in this hand. On the river you could have checked and called a bet of about $30.

    Showing up on river with JJ after played the way I just described will protect you against bluffs on river for much cheaper. If he bets full pot on river, then he is polarizing his range, and we would need to have a decent history on guy before knowing how to handle that.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    TooncesTDC wrote: »
    As for the buy in, the typical stack at this game seems about $200 and a max buy-in of $300.

    The player I'm playing hasn't been at the table long but looks in his 30s and smarter and not a degenerate.

    He limped on the button, don't give him too much credit.

  • TooncesTDCTooncesTDC Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    TooncesTDC wrote: »
    As for the buy in, the typical stack at this game seems about $200 and a max buy-in of $300.

    The player I'm playing hasn't been at the table long but looks in his 30s and smarter and not a degenerate.

    He limped on the button, don't give him too much credit.

    He had 5's and this is a casino with a $250 high hand every 30 minutes. My guess was that his limp was an attempt to get a high hand with quads and didn't want just the $4 in blinds.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    Well if that's what you really think he's doing, give him even less credit :)

    If villain is not raising a pocket pair on the button in an attempt to flop quads to win a high hand, then he's not in tune with how the game of no limit Texas hold 'em is played haha.

    My point is that don't let a physical description and an assumption about the player overshadow the facts of a hand. He limped on the button. Most of the time, V is not going to be showing up with a set here. A button limp to me signals a weak player overall and I would rely on this information more than your perception of V, that was my only point. The fact that he shows up with a set is just something you should file away if you ever play with him again, know that he has some pocket pairs in his button limp range.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Q: if a player's entire strategy in one formation lies chiefly on realizing equity, why would one put money in the pot when he now puts money in the pot?
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    Do it. Push the horses' heads *into* the water.

    You guys ignore the hand when you suggest that he top up, that playing xx is easier at 100bbs than 55bbs (and is it?), and when you suggest he isolate to one bb more. The hand played as it did preflop, and none of those adjustments would have saved hero from his quandry.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't agree. And yes, I think JJ plays poorly at 55BB.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 925 ✭✭✭✭
    Really as @persuadeo put it think

    w
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Then start with the basics themselves: why are you about to take whatever action you are about to take.

    Or out another way think what hans he has...

    On kt5....he can have qj fir a good draw
    Maybe some week draws j9 q9 maybe if passive AJ or AQ type hnds

    He can have a number of king. Kq kj kxs....
    55 and kt. K5s for big hands...which he is probably slow playing on this board

    And some tens...At jt t9. T8s.

    So a flop bets ok worse calls

    Turn bet...do you realy see him calling 25 with a ten.... R q9s type hand

    River as pkayed you check what hands bluf that your ahead.

    You need to be good 28%. Of the time...realy jj blocks. All the missed draws.......

    Id rather call AT here then jj (not saying its a call but a better one)






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