I think I should've folded here

accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
Live 1$/2$. 8 players. I am effective stack with 750$

Most players are fish except for 4 players... myself and 3 others. Villain is one of the more competent players at the table.

2 limps ahead of me. I'm on the button with 10c10s. I raise to 17$. Villain in the BB calls along with MP. 3 ways to the flop of Qc10h5d.

Check Check. I bet 30$. BB calls. MP folds.

Turn is Js. Villain checks. I bet 50$. Villain tanks, then raises to 150$. I call.

River is 6c. Villain bets into me 275$. I tank call. Villain shows AKo.

I considered AK, but disregarded it later when I made the call. I thought he could be doing this with QJ, but I think that was just wishful thinking. Really, had I been thinking more about what he's representing rather than ... wow, I have trips and can't fold this.

What was I really beating? Bottom set? A weird 2 pair? Villain is value heavy almost always based on past experiences. I lose to QQ, JJ, AK, and 9,10. I actually think this should've been an easy fold on the river. I don't think I played the hand bad, except for the call. He's overly value heavy here vs bluffs.

This is one of my faults... Stopping and being able to calm myself down to PROPERLY think through the hand.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    Based on the advice in "The Course" I think this is a turn call and a river fold.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    The problem is that you say V (BB) is a "is one of the more competent players at the table" but seeing the action and with what hand, he isn't. He called AKo instead of raising preflop and he called with 2 over and gutshot on flop without the right odds. Also the bet sizing more indicate a linear range when he should then be polarized.

    Against a competent player who is going to be balanced with busted draw (like T9s), it's a rather easy call with middle set. Against a fish, it's a fold as pointed out by @TheGameKat
    But if you mix both, then you're making mistakes.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    I agree 100% Kat in retrospect.

    Red, I think always 3betting AKo is a mistake also. I have both flatted and 3bet it. I base it on player type (having a fold button) and position. One thing I remember from watching Splitsuit is that although AK is a very good hand, it's still only a semi bluff hand preflop when 3betting. I guess I want to be a little more balanced although it's not as important in 1$/2$ live.

    I think he's more balanced than most at this game, but he does lean more value vs bluffs.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    AK is a premium hand. Not raising is usually letting money on the table. Even against a calling station - at least preflop, then you play fit-or-fold. Also if you don't 3-bet AK, what do you 3bet... QQ+?
    Then it's a super nitty 3bet range, which doesn't belong to a "more competent player".

    Even worst here: BB really DON'T want to flat. You don't want to incite both limpers to come along and play a MW pot OOP. BB holding AK needs to iso. Even better: if LP throwing 17$ is known/seen to be ok-ish player, then he has a wide-ish range, which is great for AK.
    Which again shows that V isn't really position aware and doesn't have a clear strategy in mind.

    Where do you see any reason to flat AK OOP here ?
    I think he's more balanced than most at this game, but he does lean more value vs bluffs.
    "less worst" doesn't mean "good" or "decent"
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    Where do I see a flat with AK?

    I think it should always be single raised. As far as a 3bet.... I'm not only trying to incorporate 3bet bluffs such as 9 10s and A5s to A2s, but I think there are situations where flatting a raise with AK is good. It also disguises my hand I feel. I will flat call a raise in position against an opponent when Im likely to get heads up, have position, and I believe the opponent to overvalue his hand when I under-rep mine.

    I'm still pretty new to poker, but I firmly believe that ALWAYS 3betting AK is a mistake. I think its a great play and I used to always 3bet it, but there are instances that arise where I think flat calling is the better option.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 301 ✭✭✭
    Where do I see a flat with AK?

    I think it should always be single raised. As far as a 3bet.... I'm not only trying to incorporate 3bet bluffs such as 9 10s and A5s to A2s, but I think there are situations where flatting a raise with AK is good. It also disguises my hand I feel. I will flat call a raise in position against an opponent when Im likely to get heads up, have position, and I believe the opponent to overvalue his hand when I under-rep mine.

    I'm still pretty new to poker, but I firmly believe that ALWAYS 3betting AK is a mistake. I think its a great play and I used to always 3bet it, but there are instances that arise where I think flat calling is the better option.

    There are certainly times it can be good to flat with AK. However, from the BB, when the button has opened relatively large after two limpers is not one of those times. This dude should absolutely be raising with this hand and many others, discouraging the limpers from coming along and putting an assumedly large chunk of your range in an uncomfortable spot.

    That being said, I think your original question is more interesting. I also vote for calling turn and folding river, but if you think he calls preflop with QJo and plays QJ this aggressively it can probably go either way. I just don't think someone is going to checkraise bluff this board so small very often when you can have all the nut hands.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can answer this question without being too judgmental of the BB's preflop strategy, or circumventing to player pool strategies. The question to ask is, why is he raising (and to this sizing) and then betting into the preflop aggressor's uncapped, now nutted range and at what frequency does he do this?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will often 3 bet AK here since I'm OK to take down a pot rather than play out of position. But maybe villain thought playing the hand for value against 2 weak limping players postflop was going to be more profitable than this. And how could we know he would be wrong to think so?
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Where do I see a flat with AK?

    I think it should always be single raised. As far as a 3bet.... I'm not only trying to incorporate 3bet bluffs such as 9 10s and A5s to A2s, but I think there are situations where flatting a raise with AK is good. It also disguises my hand I feel. I will flat call a raise in position against an opponent when Im likely to get heads up, have position, and I believe the opponent to overvalue his hand when I under-rep mine.

    I'm still pretty new to poker, but I firmly believe that ALWAYS 3betting AK is a mistake. I think its a great play and I used to always 3bet it, but there are instances that arise where I think flat calling is the better option.

    There are certainly times it can be good to flat with AK. However, from the BB, when the button has opened relatively large after two limpers is not one of those times. This dude should absolutely be raising with this hand and many others, discouraging the limpers from coming along and putting an assumedly large chunk of your range in an uncomfortable spot.

    That being said, I think your original question is more interesting. I also vote for calling turn and folding river, but if you think he calls preflop with QJo and plays QJ this aggressively it can probably go either way. I just don't think someone is going to checkraise bluff this board so small very often when you can have all the nut hands.

    I agree. I wasn't trying to justify his play here. I guess you guys are correct in your analysis of his play. As I get better, the players I once thought good are showing signs that they weren't as good as I once thought. I'm from a small rural area with a player pool of about 30 ppl is all.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Live 1$/2$. 8 players. I am effective stack with 750$

    Most players are fish except for 4 players... myself and 3 others. Villain is one of the more competent players at the table.

    2 limps ahead of me. I'm on the button with 10c10s. I raise to 17$. Villain in the BB calls along with MP. 3 ways to the flop of Qc10h5d.

    Check Check. I bet 30$. BB calls. MP folds.

    Turn is Js. Villain checks. I bet 50$. Villain tanks, then raises to 150$. I call.

    River is 6c. Villain bets into me 275$. I tank call. Villain shows AKo.

    I considered AK, but disregarded it later when I made the call. I thought he could be doing this with QJ, but I think that was just wishful thinking. Really, had I been thinking more about what he's representing rather than ... wow, I have trips and can't fold this.

    What was I really beating? Bottom set? A weird 2 pair? Villain is value heavy almost always based on past experiences. I lose to QQ, JJ, AK, and 9,10. I actually think this should've been an easy fold on the river. I don't think I played the hand bad, except for the call. He's overly value heavy here vs bluffs.

    This is one of my faults... Stopping and being able to calm myself down to PROPERLY think through the hand.

    You have to be decisive as to what his range could be on turn and whether ure gonna commit to the hand once the river bricks or not, assuming you believe he has enough bluffs/value hands you beat. This could simply be part of the top of his range and could do this with worst.

    If that's not the case since you believe he is value heavy then you exploitatively fold vs most if not all his XR on most boards. At most you could call to boat up if there is enough implied odds within the stack

    On another note, I wouldn't focus on whether it was good or not to limp AK. I would focus more on that this player is deciding to limp range at this point and that he could have it. You adjusting around it is your job now.
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't focus on whether it was good or not to limp AK

    Called the raise in BB.

  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I wouldn't focus on whether it was good or not to limp AK

    Called the raise in BB.

    Ah ok same difference :)
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Where do I see a flat with AK?

    I think it should always be single raised. As far as a 3bet.... I'm not only trying to incorporate 3bet bluffs such as 9 10s and A5s to A2s, but I think there are situations where flatting a raise with AK is good. It also disguises my hand I feel. I will flat call a raise in position against an opponent when Im likely to get heads up, have position, and I believe the opponent to overvalue his hand when I under-rep mine.

    I'm still pretty new to poker, but I firmly believe that ALWAYS 3betting AK is a mistake. I think its a great play and I used to always 3bet it, but there are instances that arise where I think flat calling is the better option.

    There are certainly times it can be good to flat with AK. However, from the BB, when the button has opened relatively large after two limpers is not one of those times. This dude should absolutely be raising with this hand and many others, discouraging the limpers from coming along and putting an assumedly large chunk of your range in an uncomfortable spot.

    That being said, I think your original question is more interesting. I also vote for calling turn and folding river, but if you think he calls preflop with QJo and plays QJ this aggressively it can probably go either way. I just don't think someone is going to checkraise bluff this board so small very often when you can have all the nut hands.

    Original question is interesting, but Hero's decision is based on V's range on turn x/r - river bet.
    But this range is very different is BB is a rather bad straightforward value heavy player or a good player able to bluff/semi-bluff.
    In the 1st situation, middle set is a fold at least on river. In the 2nd situation, TT is almost never a fold.

    So I think we would make a bad call if we think BB is a good player - as stated in OP "one of the more competent players" - but he in fact is rather bad straightforward value heavy player. And we don't beat a value heavy player even with TT. That's why analyzing how V played AK is important: it's the only factual info OP gave us about Villain.
    This is where we could see that Hero has to pump up his range analysis and observational skills.
  • TrentTrent Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Most of the hands you can think of in this spot beat you(QQ,JJ,AK,T9). As Red stated, this opponent is most likely a bad straightforward player. This is an easy fold on the river.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Where do I see a flat with AK?

    I think it should always be single raised. As far as a 3bet.... I'm not only trying to incorporate 3bet bluffs such as 9 10s and A5s to A2s, but I think there are situations where flatting a raise with AK is good. It also disguises my hand I feel. I will flat call a raise in position against an opponent when Im likely to get heads up, have position, and I believe the opponent to overvalue his hand when I under-rep mine.

    I'm still pretty new to poker, but I firmly believe that ALWAYS 3betting AK is a mistake. I think its a great play and I used to always 3bet it, but there are instances that arise where I think flat calling is the better option.

    There are certainly times it can be good to flat with AK. However, from the BB, when the button has opened relatively large after two limpers is not one of those times. This dude should absolutely be raising with this hand and many others, discouraging the limpers from coming along and putting an assumedly large chunk of your range in an uncomfortable spot.

    That being said, I think your original question is more interesting. I also vote for calling turn and folding river, but if you think he calls preflop with QJo and plays QJ this aggressively it can probably go either way. I just don't think someone is going to checkraise bluff this board so small very often when you can have all the nut hands.

    Original question is interesting, but Hero's decision is based on V's range on turn x/r - river bet.
    But this range is very different is BB is a rather bad straightforward value heavy player or a good player able to bluff/semi-bluff.
    In the 1st situation, middle set is a fold at least on river. In the 2nd situation, TT is almost never a fold.

    So I think we would make a bad call if we think BB is a good player - as stated in OP "one of the more competent players" - but he in fact is rather bad straightforward value heavy player. And we don't beat a value heavy player even with TT. That's why analyzing how V played AK is important: it's the only factual info OP gave us about Villain.
    This is where we could see that Hero has to pump up his range analysis and observational skills.

    I agree Red. He is more value heavy as a player. I've seen him show up with some bluffs, but it's so rare that I'm always surprised when he turns over a bluff. He flats raises almost always. If he 3bets, it's always for value and rarely with anything less than KK.

    My calling the turn bet was to get board to pair. When it didn't, I should've been able to find the fold and didn't.

    I also want to thank everyone that's replied. It gives me a lot to think about how to analyze these spots and what I'm not doing and needing to work on. I appreciate all of the input and looking forward to reading it again and making notes.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those of you advocating calling river vs a "competent" player, who is this fellow who now wants to bluff without ever having the nuts in his range, into the uncapped range of the IP player?
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    For those of you advocating calling river vs a "competent" player, who is this fellow who now wants to bluff without ever having the nuts in his range, into the uncapped range of the IP player?

    I keep reminding myself of that. Large river bets at low limits are rarely bluffs and rarely non nutted hands.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 41 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    But that is not the point at all.

    Then your thought process far and away exceed my own.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    persuadeo wrote: »
    For those of you advocating calling river vs a "competent" player, who is this fellow who now wants to bluff without ever having the nuts in his range, into the uncapped range of the IP player?

    If BB is competent but BU is not (or not seen as), then BB could try to use turn to push some FE with semi-bluff like KJo. If so, then TT should be in our calling range since only QQ and AK are better in our range on turn.

    If both players are competent, then turn c-r is not expected (BU has RA and pole advantage on :QC::TH::5D: - :JS: ) - except ev. with some read / tendencies exploitation.
    In case of both BB and BU being competent players, I think I'll more expect a c-r on flop or no c-r at all.
  • pokerdj4pokerdj4 NYRed Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Pre: He calls maybe because he knows the other 2 players in the hand are loose and passive and likely won't bet most hands.
    Flop: He calls with a gutshot and two overcards. He likely knows your range hits this board. He may think that if he hits an A or K he can sometimes check/call smallish bets to showdown. If he hits the gutshot, he thinks he can extract a lot of value from you because he may have noticed a possible leak or tell in your game.
    Turn and river: Whenever any player raises the turn and leads into us on the river, we have to consider we are looking at the nuts. It's the Baluga theorem.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Live 1$/2$. 8 players. I am effective stack with 750$

    Most players are fish except for 4 players... myself and 3 others. Villain is one of the more competent players at the table.

    2 limps ahead of me. I'm on the button with 10c10s. I raise to 17$. Villain in the BB calls along with MP. 3 ways to the flop of Qc10h5d.

    Check Check. I bet 30$. BB calls. MP folds.

    Turn is Js. Villain checks. I bet 50$. Villain tanks, then raises to 150$. I call.

    River is 6c. Villain bets into me 275$. I tank call. Villain shows AKo.

    I considered AK, but disregarded it later when I made the call. I thought he could be doing this with QJ, but I think that was just wishful thinking. Really, had I been thinking more about what he's representing rather than ... wow, I have trips and can't fold this.

    What was I really beating? Bottom set? A weird 2 pair? Villain is value heavy almost always based on past experiences. I lose to QQ, JJ, AK, and 9,10. I actually think this should've been an easy fold on the river. I don't think I played the hand bad, except for the call. He's overly value heavy here vs bluffs.

    This is one of my faults... Stopping and being able to calm myself down to PROPERLY think through the hand.

    I don't see what you did wrong. It isn't just what are you beating....what can he have that beats what you might have. Let's say you have AA here and Villian has JT or QJ. How should he play it? How would you play it? Would you just flat the turn with two pair? Would you ever raise?

    I would play two pair the same here, wouldn't you? Are you not going to value bet the river when you check?

    Are there any bluffs or semi-bluffs? If you semi-bluff the turn would you follow through on the river?

    Nice hand. Not a big deal.
    Next hand.

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