Frequency and Range Thoughts

jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
Played a hand recently that I don't think I should have won, but it did, because they aren't very good, but it made me think about an interesting point. I'll give the hand first.


.5/$1 home game with friends, only 1 of whom plays normally. V-1 is aggressive V, sticky, but wins mainly by bullying. However, his bet sizings are very telling.


6 handed hero I think like $85 effective UTG + 2 :QD: :JC: opens to $3, folds to V-1 on BU calls, SB V-2 weak tight calls.

Pot $9

Flop :KC: :TC: :4D: . C, hero C, V-1 $3 V-2 fold, hero calls.

Pot $15

Turn :3S: . Hero c, V $3. Hero calls.

Pot $21

River :6D: . Hero c V $10, hero thinks for a bit and raises to $32, V folds.


Analysis and thoughts on frequency- If I c/r all my draws and made hands like top 2 and sets, I won't have nearly enough strong hands to balance my draws (although I c-bet my stronger draws), while I realize I don't need 50/50 range of hands that strong enough to c/r, a lot of my strong hands and draws like TP just C-bet here. So if I c/c with my weaker kings/10's, it brings up a question of....when I c/r on the river here...what strong hands do I really even have here compared to busted draws? Not nearly enough. Lemme dive in further street by street.

On the flop: By opponent, this isn't a bet here. V-1 is never folding a K prob on any street, and won't likely fold a 10 or a PP, or a draw. So I need the FE to make this a good bet, and he will raise me off my equity with stronger cards. V-2 is a non factor when he doesn't bet, he hasn't touched this board. Also, the above point shows that I will c/c some stronger hands as bluff catchers, as V-1 will bluff when he senses weakness.


On the turn, when I don't improve, I likely was getting ready to fold if he sized up, when he bets $3 again, I likely thinks that he has a 10, or a flush draw. Again, I can always improve on the river, and a c/r here again, doesn't really make a ton of sense, maybe I would flat a hand like a set.


On the river, this is an easy raise, not because it's smart, but because this is how he plays. Small bets to draw, bigger bet when he doesn't get there. The problem is, my line makes no sense. What hands to I check call twice with just to raise big on the river? It stinks to high hell of a bricked draw. Even so, it only have to work 50% of the time, which I think it will work well above that.


Anyways, it got me thinking about how I have x3 barrels with strong draws, x3 with strong Kx, a % of the time with sets and 2 pair, and AA, and then some c/c hands. But do you have enough EV to have c/c drawing hands in here, that you will make up EV later if you get there? Part of the EV from drawing hands is FE, and with a hand like QJ here, against a normally sticky opponent, barreling is suicide (I'm never getting him to fold Kx, and he might even raise me here with it). Does this mean that logically, I should never have any raises on the river when I've c/c x 2, except weak Kx hands that I back into 2 pair? Should it main consist of c/c, c/c, c/f hands like 10x, really weak Kx, and busted straight draws? There shouldn't really be any c/c, c/c, c/r hands right? I just feel like maybe I'm missing something here, or that perhaps there will always a portion of your range that is the weakest in terms of EV, and that this was mine. He offered me the correct price to draw, but that's a luxury I won't have in better games or even normal games. Is my thinking in line of "there is a middling portion of your range such as OESD, and weak Kx and 10's that by the nature of equity, be the least EV portion, where you shouldn't try to make up the weakness of their equity by using FE?"

Comments

  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    I think you just played this hand badly. Frequencies are rejaly not the problem here.

    Preflop QJo form the HJ..generally a fold, but if your playing to exploit bad cally players don't mind the raise.

    On the flop 3 way...Easy Easy cbet. /frequency wise I don't see how this is not in your cbet range...Even if he is cally and wont fold a King....if he is cally he has other hands in his range that have equity and you don't mind folding even a hand like A5 you are happy to fold.

    If you want to end the actin against a very agro player ok a check raise might make some sense...but probably your better off bet folding or bet shoving depending on his bet tells.



    Cbet flop...cbet turn....given that ever draw bricked, probably don't bluff the river...might consider check raising river if he cbets....

    As played given that every draw bricked and you would never slow play a big hand to the river...on this drawy a board...and the river card gives you no big hand that you would every check raise the river with....your line should be snapped off by any thinking player.

    IMO think about your opponents ranges and exploiting them, and don't worry about frequencies for now.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    Preflop QJo form the HJ..generally a fold, but if your playing to exploit bad cally players don't mind the raise.

    It is a 6-max game. QJo isn't in your opening range?
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    @jfarrow13 this feels weird to you because your deviating your lines to capitalize vs your opponents tendencies. I actually like your line although i would probably like a turn XR instead to force him to play fit or fold given stacks. Given your line XR'ing the river is fine also since you also block his best Kx which is very valuable and is unlikely he might have AK

    as side note, dont half ass your bluff attempts, go for 4x or bigger on river, ure gonna end up giving him a good price to bluff catch you. also do the same with your good hands and you will be harder to play against

    as long as you're doing this with range and you could show up with strong hands, your line will work overall buddy
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    6 handed hero I think like $85 effective UTG + 2 :QD: :JC: opens to $3, folds to V-1 on BU calls

    There is already something amiss..... (hint, no one can fold between you and the button.)
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Preflop QJo form the HJ..generally a fold, but if your playing to exploit bad cally players don't mind the raise.

    It is a 6-max game. QJo isn't in your opening range?

    I'd be very surprised not opening QJo. It's in my standard UTG FR range...
    Now I could see more of a nitty fold if aggro V1 on BU is 3-betting a lot. Considering it's a 85bb game, we would then find ourselves OOP in a very low SPR pot and a rather marginal hand. But if V1 is more aggro post, then all right to lead.
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    On the river, this is an easy raise, not because it's smart, but because this is how he plays. Small bets to draw, bigger bet when he doesn't get there. The problem is, my line makes no sense. What hands to I check call twice with just to raise big on the river? It stinks to high hell of a bricked draw. Even so, it only have to work 50% of the time, which I think it will work well above that.
    About that I totally agree with @Faustovaldez123

    Also I'd not x/c too many draws otherwise you lose nut possibilities on your cbet line
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised not opening QJo. It's in my standard UTG FR range...

    You raise this full ring? Really?

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for all the responses, in a 6 max game, I may have my 6-max term wrong, but here's how the action went: SB, BB ante, UTG who folds, me who opens UTG + 1 (ah, I see @jeffnc ), fold in CO, BU calls, SB calls, BB folds. And I hate QJo in full ring games, but 6-max home games...it becomes quite more appealing.


    @Faustovaldez123 , yeah, I think the correction here is that to instead put QJo and other somewhat marginal drawing hands that wouldn't c-bet the flop, but might wanna c/r to capitalize on FE, and do my stronger hands, all into turn c/r's. That way, I can keep all my meh bluff catching hands as pure c/c hands, only dumb Kx's that turned 2 pair on the river into c/r's, and my line will be smoother and more believable overall. In the moment, I thought about raising the turn, but then thought "this guy will never fold a his FD, and I'd hate to get shoved on", plus...the pricing....$3-->$15 led me to believe that I could maybe take it from him later.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised not opening QJo. It's in my standard UTG FR range...

    You raise this full ring? Really?

    Sure.
    I usually have a skill edge playing low stakes, these tables play passively so I don't expect many 3bet meaning (not having to bet/fold often), and lag-ish is a style which naturally fits my taste - for the worst and the best.
    If I don't have a skill edge or if I play on a aggro table, then I'll fold it.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the responses, in a 6 max game, I may have my 6-max term wrong, but here's how the action went: SB, BB ante, UTG who folds, me who opens UTG + 1 (ah, I see @jeffnc ), fold in CO, BU calls, SB calls, BB folds. And I hate QJo in full ring games, but 6-max home games...it becomes quite more appealing.


    @Faustovaldez123 , yeah, I think the correction here is that to instead put QJo and other somewhat marginal drawing hands that wouldn't c-bet the flop, but might wanna c/r to capitalize on FE, and do my stronger hands, all into turn c/r's. That way, I can keep all my meh bluff catching hands as pure c/c hands, only dumb Kx's that turned 2 pair on the river into c/r's, and my line will be smoother and more believable overall. In the moment, I thought about raising the turn, but then thought "this guy will never fold a his FD, and I'd hate to get shoved on", plus...the pricing....$3-->$15 led me to believe that I could maybe take it from him later.

    You could do that but i would advise not to split ure ranges so transparently cause ure basically capping ure self, more important to be able to show up with range in ure actions

    If u do decide to xr earlier thats cool also if u thjnk the player will give up sooner in the hand or if u could pressure his stack earlier, if u find that not working then delaying ure agg will be better
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised not opening QJo. It's in my standard UTG FR range...

    You raise this full ring? Really?

    Sure.

    We're talking about being UTG+1 at a 10 player table, not UTG+1 at a 6 player table, right?

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised not opening QJo. It's in my standard UTG FR range...

    You raise this full ring? Really?

    Sure.

    We're talking about being UTG+1 at a 10 player table, not UTG+1 at a 6 player table, right?

    Full ring here is 8-player table.

    Not sure I'd open utg+1 on a 10-player table without a strong edge or particular tight dynamic

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