Adjusting in crazy games

MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
The $1/$2 game I play in is absolutely crazy at times. The standard opens $15 gets 4-6 callers and even adjusting to go bigger $20-$25 range still sees multi-way pots.

By the end of the night stacks are normally 1k+.

I have adjusted to this and it is working but I feel it could be short term results and would like thoughts on playing in a game where half the table are complete wildcards that raise, limp, call almost A2C randomly. One or two are typical nits, and few know enough to think they are better than average but probably arent(#includes me).

A few other notes...
Almost none of the players use hand reading is linear mentality... so if 377 flops and you bet the firmly believe you raised pre with 37...

Typically TPWK, MP, draws will follow you to river if no obv flush.

Also, slightly overbetting turn will get a jam from nut flush, oe straight draws about 1/2 the time.

Honestly I want in every damn pot because big spec type hands get paid handsomely, but everytime I open up my range more than below I get in very tough spots and spew chips....

I am opening/calling a standard raise from basically any position with 1010+, SCs to 910, and suited broadways...

Once in the HJ, CO, BTN I'm opening or calling with any pair, all SCs, all Suited 1/2 gappers

I'm 3 betting AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AKs,AQs,A5s,A4s,A3s,KQs,QJs,10Js,89s,97s,42s

Thoughts and criticisms please...

Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do understand the philosophy that is/was popular on this forum regarding finding their "pain threshold" - keep making bigger raises until you get people to fold. I'm not a big proponent of this at the crazy loose tables you're talking about, because theoretically it encourages your opponents to play better against you (by folding correctly rather than calling incorrrectly). It avoids the primary exploit of this type of player which is paying too much and being value bet to death.

    A lot of times at these tables there is a dynamic where it seems there is always going to be one raise. Someone thinks they have a good hand, so most hands are 2-bet, but rarely are hands 3-bet. In this situation, you can limp reraise hands like AK/AQ/JJ etc, possibly even all-in. This is kind of nice because it can be the best of both worlds - exploiting calling too much for smaller stakes, and folding too much for higher stakes. However you will still get the occasional person calling you with 66 or AT. AA is mostly eliminated because that hand specifically will get 3-bet once they see a raise (although they'd limp/reraise it themselves).

    However if the table is more passive, then you will have to put in the raise yourself. Play more hands in position, and more big suited cards. Opening up your range isn't necessarily the answer unless you weren't playing pocket pairs and suited connectors to begin with :) Opening SCs in late position often puts you in a position where you're OOP with a hand that doesn't play very well against few opponents who don't fold. That is where you want big cards.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Range and sizing are bound together, insperable twins. Of course you can be spewing when you start opening wider and bigger. That's just the basic math of the game.
    2. Pain Threshold is a misunderstood concept for breaking open games and is intended to work on all streets as a counter to player pool tendencies. It was bastardized at RCP as a preflop solution to isolation, in the same way your average NL50 muggle will now downbet every flop and have no idea what to do after that. Cf. every preflop hh that mentions it compared to every flop and turn hh question.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,073 -
    It took nearly the entire year before we finally got a Harry Potter reference.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm 3 betting AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AKs,AQs,A5s,A4s,A3s,KQs,QJs,10Js,89s,97s,42s

    Thoughts and criticisms please...

    Not saying there is no benefit to this, but let's go through some of the issues. AK and the premium pairs are obvious. So when holding QQ+ at least you haven't distinguished yourself from how your opponents would mostly play these hands as this is straight value (your extra value with these comes from the fact that your 3-bet range is bigger). Let's take QJs as a middle ground. Let's say there is an EP raise to $15, and you reraise to $45. You're folding to to any 4-bet I'll assume. You make auto profit if they fold which is nice, but that leaves actually playing poker when they call. What is their calling range, and what is the SPR, and how does the hand play out?

  • MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Honesty it depends on the player. I mean obviously if it is one of two nits at the table I'm not 3betting QJs,

    Here is example from last night.

    7 handed 1/2

    Avg stack at table $900.

    Hero ($864) is dealt 9c7c in the sb

    UTG ($525) makes it $10
    Gets 3 callers.

    *UTG is an unkempt loud aggressive player who opens about 60% of pots and will call down with TP, draws, and overs. Will fold to a second barrel otherwise.

    I have never witnessed him folding to a river bet if he called the turn bet.

    He also seldom raises less than $20 if holding premium hands *

    Doubtful that UTG is ever folding but

    Hero makes it $55 (my intent is to get him alone), UTG calls, everyone else folds.

    Flop comes out 8c 5d 2s...

    Hero checks,
    UTG makes $20... Hero calls...

    Turn 7h

    Hero makes it $95
    UTG makes a lot of angry motions with hands and calls

    River is 3h and Hero makes it $150...

    UTG calls...shows KdQs

    Trying illustrate why I have issues adjusting to this
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes but I picked the hand QJ for a reason, and that hand was a perfect example of what I was getting at :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure what your example demonstrates. If the point is that your opponents don't understand what they should bluff catch with, your value bets clearly expand, in this case even to hands that are generally bluffs.

    All that is of a piece. When more and more aggressive money goes into the a game, it has to come from somewhere, and is no longer polarized. A wacky game or skilled aggressive game is constantly in the merge.
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    "Avg stack at table $900." so, when UTG raises to $10, it is meaningless given his stack size. You re-raise to $55, that's not a real big pre-flop call for a guy with a $900 stack, either.

    Flop, there's a $150 in the pot, and villain bets just $20? That's almost like a "free card" for you. And...sure enough, the turn gives you a pair which you bet. UTG calls you with nothing, you scoop the pot with 2nd pair.

    Where is this game? Can I come play?

    You know, I think lots of times, we get WAY too hung up with blinds when we talk about a game. 1/2 game with $900 stacks is a big game -- deep stacks. A 2/5 game with $500 stacks would probably play smaller.

    so...adjust your play to stack sizes and not the amount of the blinds.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The vast majority of low stakes live games would play just fine if there were no blinds at all. People don't need seed money to fight for, they just want to gamble. That's why opening raises in $1/2 games are $15, and in $10/20 games with better players they're $50-60. That's also one reason bigger games often play deeper stacked.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Getting back to the 3-betting range from the OP, a hand like QJ is a really bad hand to put in this range because the raise/call range of standard players from UTG dominates QJ badly. If you get 4-bet obviously it's a snap fold, and if they fold it doesn't matter what you have, but if they call now you're the one who has to play poker at a disadvantage. You have position, but you can't beat his cards and if you're 3-betting that many hands people will start getting very sticky with you so c-bet steals are going to stop paying off very well.

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