Flopped a set on monotone board

ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
Hey everyone, it's my first post on this forum, thanks for your time.

I was playing 1-3 NL, and the hand was my third hand on the table. Villain is an old guy who had $600. I had $510.

I raised to $15 with :7s :7d from UTG+1. MP, BTN,BB call. BB is the villain.
Flop (pot $60):
:7c :8c :Ac
BB bet $35, I raised to $150, MP and BTN fold.
I reraised because I didn't wanna players who had one club still keep in the pot, and also to check what did BB have.

Turn(pot $360):
:3d
BB bet $100, I called(because the price is good, and still wanted to see if I got chance to get full house )

River (pot $560):
:Th
BB bet 100

What should I do?
Also, what's the best action on the flop?
Thank you!

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why don't you start by going through the possible range of your opponent given all your actions.
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    I'm back and forth on this. I really am torn.....but......

    It's hard to figure he'd donk bet AGAIN on the turn like that if he doesn't have something better than 2 pair. Big raise on the flop, he bets $100 again on the turn, he's not drawing at the flush unless he's a total lunatic (which you see plenty of in live 1/3 games). So, he flopped a set or a small flush, and you're not folding your set, so you're gonna lose some money.

    He's charging you to draw at the flush on the turn. Then the 4th club didn't come, so he throws another bet out on the river.

    Call. Never fold a set.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited January 1
    Does the old guy call 15 pre with small suited connectors or 1 gappers? Is he a nitty old guy? If hes nitty then I discount hands like 56c or 89c. Maybe a nitty old guy calls with jqc or kqc. He may have also called with aa or 88.

    On flop, I think I am just calling the 35 and keeping the pot as small as possible on such a dangerous board. But I can be kind of nitty, people with think its dumb to just call on this flop. I just call and keep calling on non club turns and rivers and raise on paired rivers. This keeps the pot small and our decisions easier especially when playing this deep.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So one of the reasons you raised the flop $115 was to find out what villain had. Did you find out? He just called. Does that mean he
    a) has the nut flush and donk bet right into you but then changed his mind and decided to slowplay since you showed so much interest
    b) has a non-nut flush but isn't sure if you have a bigger flush
    c) does not have a flush, but has a draw to one
    d) is convinced you have a flush, but he has a draw to a boat with 88, AA, or A8
    e) is floating and bluffing you

    So once you figure that out, what are you going to do against each of those?

    It sounds like you think he has a flush based on your comment about the turn card, because now you think the price is good and you're drawing to a full house. All of a sudden villain thinks his hand is ahead of you, and yet he only called your flop raise. Did he change his mind again - he has the nut flush, but after he changed his mind about donk betting you and then slowplaying, he changed his mind again and donk bet into you again?

    My point is, you paid a heck of a lot of money for information, and yet the information either seems not to be reliable, or you're not acting on it. So why pay so much for it?

    Let's say you forget all that, and think of how the hand will play out against all the hands he might have a-e above. Let's start with shoving and see how that would pan out, since that's the simplest one that ends the hand with the fewest decisions.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He's charging you to draw at the flush on the turn.

    He's betting $100 into $360, offering hero odds of 4.6:1? I mean, I'm not saying that all players understand pot odds, but......

  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭
    as @persuadeo mentioned @Erinning , start by ranging him and try to understand what parts of his range he might take this action with. As a clue im seeing a lot of block betting on his end + you mentioned he is an older guy so this makes a lot of sense. From what i'm seeing he is a little nervous himself with his holding and is simply trying to slow you down + plus see a cheap showdown

    the :Ac is out there so his made flushes will almost be cut in half which is huge. so now try to figure the rest out

    On another note, you should never ever put in an aggressive action with its main purpose of "seeing what he has" . This would lead to a lot of false information on your end ultimately resulting into mistakes. This should be a secondary function of your action as ranges will naturally narrow as the action goes on.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    He's charging you to draw at the flush on the turn.

    He's betting $100 into $360, offering hero odds of 4.6:1? I mean, I'm not saying that all players understand pot odds, but......

    yea. That's how I read the situation. The villain has a hand, it's not the nut flush. Villain throws a bet on the turn to not give a free card, figuring the hero could be drawing at a flush--with only one flush card in his hand. villain should have bet bigger, but he thinks his hand is vulnerable.

    This is all academic. I think it's as simple as this....hero can't fold a set here.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Why don't you start by going through the possible range of your opponent given all your actions.

    Preflop:
    I think he can call with a wide range of hands, because he was getting o good price and closing action. He could have: any pp below JJ, Ax suited, suited 56+, and any 2 Broadway.
    Flop:when he bets: made flushes (~15 combos), 88 (3 combos) A8s, A7s, 78s (5 combos), and a few combos of Ax, Kcx and Qcx (-6 combos) Flop after he calls my raise: made flushes and 88, total 18 combos that beats me, A8s and A7s, 5 combos that I beat.
    River:
    He keeped betting, i don't think he got A8s& A7s. So very high possibility flush
  • DeadliftsDeadlifts Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Same size bet on the turn & river is pretty suspect as well I feel
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3
    Erinning wrote: »
    Flop:when he bets: made flushes (~15 combos), 88 (3 combos) A8s, A7s, 78s (5 combos), and a few combos of Ax, Kcx and Qcx (-6 combos) Flop after he calls my raise: made flushes and 88, total 18 combos that beats me, A8s and A7s, 5 combos that I beat.

    Are you really eliminating :KC: :BACK:, :QC: :BACK: combos now? Especially such as :QC: :8H: type hands or possibly even :TC: :9H: or :JC: :TH: type hands? And you mention Ax and Qcx, but what about :AH: :QC: or :AD: :KC: type hands? A hand like :AH: :QC: would be high on my candidate list here.
    Erinning wrote: »
    River:
    He keeped betting, i don't think he got A8s& A7s. So very high possibility flush

    That barely qualifies as "keep betting". It is either a huge suck bet (which makes no sense since you gave him the opportunity to stick it in on the flop, and he declined), or a super scared thin value bet/blocking bet that he wants to get to showdown cheaply with.

    I'm not sure you're considering the full sequence of events here, and how it all flows together. The turn changed nothing, and the river changed little. So what does a donk bet mean, first of all? It's either a nutty hand, or a semi-bluffy hand, or a merged range hand that gets bold. It's rarely a pure bluff. Then you raised big. Now would someone who comes out charging with the nuts all of a sudden slow down when you gave him what he wants? Virtually impossible. Also rules out any chance there was of a pure bluff. That leaves pure semi-bluffs and mediocre made hands and combo semi-bluffs. Now the weak turn re-donk when the turn changed nothing at all. This has to tell you something.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Erinning wrote: »
    Flop:when he bets: made flushes (~15 combos), 88 (3 combos) A8s, A7s, 78s (5 combos), and a few combos of Ax, Kcx and Qcx (-6 combos) Flop after he calls my raise: made flushes and 88, total 18 combos that beats me, A8s and A7s, 5 combos that I beat.

    Are you really eliminating :KC: :BACK:, :QC: :BACK: combos now? Especially such as :QC: :8H: type hands or possibly even :TC: :9H: or :JC: :TH: type hands? And you mention Ax and Qcx, but what about :AH: :QC: or :AD: :KC: type hands? A hand like :AH: :QC: would be high on my candidate list here.
    Erinning wrote: »
    River:
    He keeped betting, i don't think he got A8s& A7s. So very high possibility flush

    That barely qualifies as "keep betting". It is either a huge suck bet (which makes no sense since you gave him the opportunity to stick it in on the flop, and he declined), or a super scared thin value bet/blocking bet that he wants to get to showdown cheaply with.

    I'm not sure you're considering the full sequence of events here, and how it all flows together. The turn changed nothing, and the river changed little. So what does a donk bet mean, first of all? It's either a nutty hand, or a semi-bluffy hand, or a merged range hand that gets bold. It's rarely a pure bluff. Then you raised big. Now would someone who comes out charging with the nuts all of a sudden slow down when you gave him what he wants? Virtually impossible. Also rules out any chance there was of a pure bluff. That leaves pure semi-bluffs and mediocre made hands and combo semi-bluffs. Now the weak turn re-donk when the turn changed nothing at all. This has to tell you something.

    Thank you for your very detailed analysis. I was thinking the hand like :Ah :Qc that can be his range, but when he bet on the turn again that made me think he got flush already. Bc he called me reraise, and lead to bet, he wasn't afraid of flush.
    At your first reply, you gave me four different scenarios that showed it's no point to reraise on the flop. I'll remember the mistake. Thanks again.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    as @persuadeo mentioned @Erinning , start by ranging him and try to understand what parts of his range he might take this action with. As a clue im seeing a lot of block betting on his end + you mentioned he is an older guy so this makes a lot of sense. From what i'm seeing he is a little nervous himself with his holding and is simply trying to slow you down + plus see a cheap showdown

    the :Ac is out there so his made flushes will almost be cut in half which is huge. so now try to figure the rest out

    On another note, you should never ever put in an aggressive action with its main purpose of "seeing what he has" . This would lead to a lot of false information on your end ultimately resulting into mistakes. This should be a secondary function of your action as ranges will naturally narrow as the action goes on.


    Thank you very much. it's an excellent advise. I shouldn't put money in order to get unreliable information. And I also had sdv hand, i might should call instead of reraise.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Erinning wrote: »
    Thank you for your very detailed analysis. I was thinking the hand like :Ah :Qc that can be his range, but when he bet on the turn again that made me think he got flush already. Bc he called me reraise, and lead to bet, he wasn't afraid of flush.

    It's possible, but if that's so, why did he donk bet, then slow down, then donk bet again? If you had a flush, is that what you'd do, and why? You more or less offered to play for stacks on the flop. If he wasn't scared of a flush, then why didn't he go for it? Even if he did have the nut flush, shutting out your equity (with a set with draw to a full house) is still a good idea for him.
    Erinning wrote: »
    At your first reply, you gave me four different scenarios that showed it's no point to reraise on the flop. I'll remember the mistake.

    I wasn't necessarily saying that. All those things I said were deducible only after you raised.

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