Hand history: I got stacked, but did I play this hand poorly?

DMG7DMG7 Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
Hi all, this is my first hand history so bear with me, I'll try my best to supply as much detail as possible.

1/3 NLHE, Hero Stack is about 240.

Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero smooth calls hoping to 3-bet a raise in front of him (specifically from the big stack at the table who was two players to his left and had been raising about 50% of pots). Maybe this is a bad move, but it's the route hero took nonetheless.

With that said, of course big stack folds, 2 players in MP call, and sb calls and bb checks. 5 players to flop with 13 dollars in pot after rake. Flop:

Flop: AJ3 r

Hero leads out for 10 - both MP1 and MP2 call. Blinds fold. Pot gets up to a little over 40.

Turn: Kh (no flush draws on board)

Hero bets 40, MP1 folds, MP 2 smooth calls. Heads up to river with pot around 120.

River: 3c

Hero bets 70, MP2 reraises all in which would leave hero 10 behind if he were to call. Hero goes into tank to think: no raise from middle position, so we can likely rule out JJ. Q10 is most likely candidate to be beating me in the spot, but the board pairing on the river makes this a horrible time for MP2 to raise. Hero convinces himself that JJ and Q10 are out and that MP2 is likely making this move with an Ax (somewhere in A5 - A9 range) hoping to take down what he THINKS is a splite pot (As and 3s with K kicker). Because hero is beating all these Ax combos, hero calls. Villian shows pocket 3s: he flopped a set and rivered quads.

Hero is angry. Hero thinks he thought through this hand pretty well but wonders a) what could he have done better and b) how do I avoid getting stacked in situations like this while still extracting value on my AKs OOP?

Answers

  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 169 ✭✭
    "Hero Stack is about 240.

    Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero smooth calls hoping to 3-bet a raise in front of him (specifically from the big stack at the table who was two players to his left and had been raising about 50% of pots)."

    This is poor sizing for your plan.

    Give yourself a $100 stack. You limp, V raise to 15, a call then you shove. Perfect.

    Now, same thing with $240 and your shove is suicide, too big too risky, only called by total donks or AA, KK. A 3! to $70 or so is just about certain to commit you on the flop. Only a few flops will cause you to bail on this hands. So that fails as well.

    Raise PF and if 3! you can 4! shove if it's not the table nit.
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    "a) what could he have done better and b) how do I avoid getting stacked in situations like this while still extracting value on my AKs OOP?"

    1) You could have raised pre-flop instead of hoping the big stack would do it for you. Perhaps that would have folded out the 33's in MP, but I doubt it.

    2) You could have checked your 2 pair when the board paired. I generally don't show up at the river with 2 pair after the board pairs.

    3) You might have bet a little stronger on the flop. A call there might have alerted you to the flopped set? Possibly? Depending on how loose MP2 has been playing. Highly player and game dependent, though.

    b) You could have folded to the all-in raise on the river. You HAD to figure you were beaten when you saw a big raise to your river bet. Personally, I'd have just assumed MP2 rivered trip 3's. You didn't suspect maybe A-3 suited, or K-3 suited? I mean he could have limped in with almost anything--that's what happens in live games where I play. People see a bunch of pre-flop raising, and they get to where they'll play anything for just $3.

    To avoid getting stacked -- don't call big raises in live 1/3 games unless you have the Nuts. Not ever. Multi-way-ish type games like this, people limp in with all kinds of stuff, and they'll call just to do it. So, when they shove, they have it. Especially on the river. So don't call.

    "They could be bluffing" So? Why do YOU have to "keep 'em honest"? Let all the other players at the table do that if you think MP2 bluffs.

    Also -- play with a bigger stack. Where I play, people show up to 1/3 games with $900 in their pocket. They see your $240 stack, and they shove thinking they have $600 behind--whether it's on the table, or it's in their pocket. But play more carefully with big stacks. :)
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero smooth calls hoping to 3-bet a raise in front of him (specifically from the big stack at the table who was two players to his left and had been raising about 50% of pots). Maybe this is a bad move, but it's the route hero took nonetheless.

    This isn't bad per se, but you need a whole strategy around you limping. This is an advanced thing.
    If you're a beginner, stop butchering your hand. Read some books / watch some videos and focus on playing ABC. Then develop your game around more advanced concepts.
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero is angry. Hero thinks he thought through this hand pretty well but wonders a) what could he have done better and b) how do I avoid getting stacked in situations like this while still extracting value on my AKs OOP?
    You've to think at every street and to every action: "what is the range V is folding / calling / raising with?".

    When you limped and V called pre, what hands does he have ? (Which he didn't fold or open)
    When you bet on flop, what hands to you put V on when he calls? (From preflop range, minus the hands he would fold or raise)
    When you c-bet turn, what hands do V call with ? (From flop range, minus the hands he would fold or raise)
    When you c-bet turn, what hands do V raise with ? Which ones does he fold ? Which ones does he call with?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would start by not being angry. One day you'll laugh at this silly hand and know how far you've come. Happy new year.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero smooth calls

    At this stage of the game, we can refer to this simply as "limping" :)
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero bets 40, MP1 folds, MP 2 smooth calls.

    Oh boy, here's where we can sniff out a problem. You see, if he had just called, we'd probably be fine. But a "smooth call" - and you are using the term correctly - spells trouble. Whenever they smooth call, they have you beat!

    It's just a crap hand, don't worry much about it. Only thing I'll say is that you probably didn't give much consideration to stack sizes. We see this all the time - decent players trying to get even better who bet the same way regardless of whether they started with 200BB or 60BB. You might have bet the hand the same way, I don't know, but you should at least consider the hand in terms of SPR, etc. In general, stack sizes of $150-$250 in $1/3 games lead to some awkward situations if you play the same way as if you had $100 or $400. It is neither short stacked, nor full stacked, nor deep stacked. It's no-man's land. Note that $150-$250 is a very typical stack size for most of your opponents. This still would have been a trouble hand, I'm just sayin'.....

    @Steve Jones , what do you think MP2 would have done in this hand if he was checked to on the flop?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    @jeffnc : I don't know if it's because of language barrier or if it's really a poker concept - or maybe sarcasm? - but is there really a difference between a "call" and a "smooth call" ? (This is a genuine question)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was mostly joking. There are different definitions. I suppose technically you would call limping with AK preflop a "smooth call", because some definitions are "just calling where you would be expected to raise". I don't think anyone would say it's a "smooth call" if you called with bottom pair on the flop. That would sound funny. And "limping" would be more typical for AK preflop, instead of "smooth call".

    It struck me as funny that DMG7 called villain's call a "smooth call" because that kind of implies he knows villain had a hand he should be raising with. Usually you say "smooth call" when we're talking from hero's point of view, or villain's point of view only in hindsight when we know what he has. As in "I made a set on the turn and villain bet into me, and I just smooth called", or "It turned out villain just smooth called me with top boat there."
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero is UTG with AKo. Hero smooth calls

    At this stage of the game, we can refer to this simply as "limping" :)
    DMG7 wrote: »
    Hero bets 40, MP1 folds, MP 2 smooth calls.

    Oh boy, here's where we can sniff out a problem. You see, if he had just called, we'd probably be fine. But a "smooth call" - and you are using the term correctly - spells trouble. Whenever they smooth call, they have you beat!

    It's just a crap hand, don't worry much about it. Only thing I'll say is that you probably didn't give much consideration to stack sizes. We see this all the time - decent players trying to get even better who bet the same way regardless of whether they started with 200BB or 60BB. You might have bet the hand the same way, I don't know, but you should at least consider the hand in terms of SPR, etc. In general, stack sizes of $150-$250 in $1/3 games lead to some awkward situations if you play the same way as if you had $100 or $400. It is neither short stacked, nor full stacked, nor deep stacked. It's no-man's land. Note that $150-$250 is a very typical stack size for most of your opponents. This still would have been a trouble hand, I'm just sayin'.....

    @Steve Jones , what do you think MP2 would have done in this hand if he was checked to on the flop?

    Bet about $10
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Smooth call is old school lingo for call which is a trap - it's "smooth" because it is deceptive or tricky, as in a "smooth character."

    Also one of Christian Soto's favorite poker terms, btw.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1
    Bet about $10

    I think he would have checked, but maybe that's just me :)

  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited January 1
  • DMG7DMG7 Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the help everyone, appreciate the feedback
  • Loveomaha3223Loveomaha3223 Red Chipper Posts: 6
    The less experienced player will always think there is something to do to eliminate losing. When you hold AK on an AKJ3 board and are beat you are just supposed to lose minus exact live reads or a credible history with opponent that allows you to fold profitably. AK is not the greatest hand to limp with as it usually makes to pair top kicker but if u limp and next to act raises and gets several callers you may be playing a hand that plays better heads up vs. Multiple opponents, also as has been said many times when you limp re raise with AK you are flipping a coin or dominated.

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