Limp/reraise range perception?

jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
Was involved in an interesting hand recently, or at least a conversation I found interesting.

$1/2 local game with the typical cast of characters. Main villain is a TAGish player with some leaks. Might be about a break even player. He clearly is trying to think his way through the game, and probably overthinking certain things relative to his overall skill set, and underthinking other things. Standard stacks. He limps EP, maybe another limper or two, Button raises to $17, I call in the blinds, Villain reraises to $50, Button calls, I fold. The flop is 9 high rags. Villain bets $70 and Button thinks a bit and folds reluctantly, but convinced he is beat. Button shows TT.

Then a conversation ensues, most of which I can overhear. He's in a state of disbelief that someone would fold TT on that board and tells the player next to him that he must be doing something wrong if people are folding pocket tens as an overpair there. Then he mentions something like "he must know what my range is there."

That kind of befuddled me, because as far as I know after playing with him about 40 hours I've never seen him limp reraise before, and even if he had the Button was not what you'd call a fish but was still a losing player so couldn't be expected to range everyone at the table in every situation. But even if he had, it would be the general pool tendency that limp/rr is KK+. (Which makes you wonder why he called to begin with. Could have been he was setmining, could have been he wasn't convinced until the flop bet, could have been he simply forgot what a limp/rr meant until he remembered on the flop.)

Fast forward to later in the night and Villain brought it up again with the new player next to him. He complained again about the unbelievable fold and how he was supposed to make a ton of money against TT on that flop. Since Button was gone, he now says he had KK, but his "range" is JJ+, AK.

Now obviously this makes no sense, because I don't know why he'd expect a call from TT against that range to begin with, but aside from that, my question is, are there really players who make this move (rarely, and the only time they did it was supposedly KK) expect other low limit players to have a perception of their limp/rr range being anything other than KK+? Why would they? It kind of blows my mind that someone is thinking someone else has a range for them in some particular situation when they might literally have never shown any cards to that player in that situation.

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    my question is, are there really players who make this move (rarely, and the only time they did it was supposedly KK) expect other low limit players to have a perception of their limp/rr range being anything other than KK+? Why would they?
    I see it all the time from weak players who buy in short and see poker as a way to make easy money.

    why does a player call?
    a lot of reasons: pride, desire to stack the nit, competitive nature, want to realize the equity of their hand, want to see a flop... etc.

    as long as players are calling, limp/raisers will continue to play as such.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    See, I think a lot of the people who do it KNOW they're basically playing their cards face up at that point. They just think it's the right thing to do. Or it's trappy. Or whatever. But it seems like most players know it's KK+ when they are up against it.

    And while it astound me how often they're called, I also think the players who do call the L/RR KNOW that the L/RR range is KK+.

    You can see the common Homomoronicus in most rooms, I think, often identified by its mating call:

    "Man it's always aces or kings. Hold my seat, I'm coming back"
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    I rarely did it, but in certain games I would limp marginal hands UTG such as :KC: :TC: , and then if a late pos opened, 3-bet them. Again, to be used sparingly, but it worked a lot of the time in the right game conditions.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    In micros online it's always KK+ i feel like, usually AA.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    I rarely did it, but in certain games I would limp marginal hands UTG such as :KC: :TC: , and then if a late pos opened, 3-bet them. Again, to be used sparingly, but it worked a lot of the time in the right game conditions.

    It worked meaning they folded, right? So really the question is, what range did your opponent put you on?

    I personally have made the move against the right player with T9s, but have not been called yet.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10
    Correct, they usually fold, or if the board came a single over such as A K or Q, I would 40%-50% pot it, and that would work. I've only done it like 5 times, and I one time he called my c-bet on a Kx board, I checked the turn, he bet, I did some Hollywood bs of "man QQ and there's always a K or an A" folded and he showed AK. But again, I just use it as a game specific tool, and only 1 max twice.

    So, if they are trying to steal with a 35/40% range (not unreasonable), and I 3-bet.... I think I realistically shrink him down to a 8.75% large defend range, a conservative 5.5% range consisting of QQ, KQs+,-99. I think he may 4-bet KK or AA, but even still. Let's say he's only stealing 25% range, not even 2 gappers (against, conservative)...he's still way over folding. Again, this has to be the type of player who make's his bread and butter, much like me, by attacking weak limpers with a large range in position. Time has taught him that limp 3-bet's means premiums, and really 3-bets in general may mean premiums until proven otherwise. So he's happy to way over fold. Therefor, this play before extremely profitable, when used sparingly, against the right opponent. Even if he flats strong overs and PP (all suited boardways, QQ-99, he only has an overpair or top pair 30% of the time, which means we can bet smaller, 1/3rd sizing, on any board that only contains an A, K or Q, and if he plays fit of fold, we still show a profit by making him fold. We really show large profit on boards that are 9 and below, because with can 2/3rds/3/4ths the pot and, he only has a overpair 22% of the time, but 75% of the time he just has overs. I just read a post too where some guy folded 10's on a 9 high board. WAT. If we start adding in the "MAN I fold my JJ and QQ because he's got it" players, we really start raking in the EV." And I've seen someone (correctly btw) fold QQ on a 7 high board (I did have AA), but everyone at the table though I had AK and berated him for folding.

    Anyways, it's just a nice cheeky little play that I find you can sometimes "get one through" with in the right game conditions.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So again, the question is, what range did he put you on? It's obviously not KK+. Which really makes you wonder what they're thinking.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    Oh, I think people will put you on KK and still call because they think they know I got QQ-AA, and if they hit, they will stack me, even if I am raising $60 and only have $300 behind, the figure "screw the 1:7 rule, I can stack this guy if I hit my set or 2 pair or FD w.e"

  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    So again, the question is, what range did he put you on? It's obviously not KK+. Which really makes you wonder what they're thinking.

    You're assuming they are putting you on a range at all.
    The majority of the time..folks are just playing their cards. Oh, I have TT I have to at least see a flop.
    I doubt they are even calling to see what the action is.

    Sure, it's one of those things you can get away with once a session...but...that means you are playing your AA/KK that way too? How often are you getting those hands in EP.

    I find it not necessarily a "card" thing as it is a player thing. Someone who is raising way too wide, you can limp and 3bet as a counter strategy with the top part of your range.

    Vs some players that would be 99+ and KQs +
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michael E wrote: »
    You're assuming they are putting you on a range at all.

    Go back to my original post.

  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Michael E wrote: »
    You're assuming they are putting you on a range at all.

    Go back to my original post.

    Your asking .....how can he expect to be put on a range?

    We all expect that an EP limp re-raise is KK+. It's one of the oldest moves in the book.

    There are a couple of adages working against each other and it depends on the player.

    In Low Limit game people don't limp - re-raise without having a monster...
    And people don't fold over-pairs to one bet.

    Like you said...once he called...is he set mining? Maybe so....but Hero doesn't know that. So if I'm set mining....and you think I am playing a big pair...you are going to be confused to my actions.

    Hero is also applying his thinking to the scenario. He is a losing player like you said...and is never folding TT to a low board....limp/reraise or not. He will "put you" on AK.

    And the hand...for the guy with TT...is it really any different than LP vs. a blind raise? Essentially, it becomes the same thing. We raise TT in LP, get 3bet by the Big Blind...we aren't folding even if we think his range is KK+. In fact, if we know his range is KK+, we are more incentivized to call because when we hit our set, we get PAID!

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michael E wrote: »
    Your asking .....how can he expect to be put on a range?

    No, obviously implicitly or explicitly everyone expects to be put on a range*.

    The question in my original post was "are there really players who make this move and expect other low limit players to have a perception of their limp/rr range being anything other than KK+? "

    *although a lot of recreational players actually make this a "hand" instead of a range.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't find poker players to be terribly rational, not sure what satisfaction you're going to get here. Did Tyrion figure out why his cousin kept crushing the beetles?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just wondering what you guys had seen and heard from other players. My reaction was basically that - irrational.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Just wondering what you guys had seen and heard from other players. My reaction was basically that - irrational.


    That's the point. You are trying to solve what makes poker profitable. If we all played optimally and rationally it would be hard to make a profit.

    Back to the hand....What I find is that most players still will not fold the top end of their range even when it is so obvious they should.

    I recall a hand against a guy where I was playing on my phone for about 40 minutes and hadn't played a hand.

    All of a sudden in the BB i have AA and the Button raises, the SB calls, and I make a good sized 3 bet.

    I'm pissed because I think that I ruined the chance to get paid because I literally hadn't even been playing the small blind. Guy calls with KT and stacks off on a King high flop.

    I , like you, am perplexed. What range did he put me on? Every piece of the hand reading puzzle was there to realize I wasn't playing around!

    But...But....he had top pair, okay kicker and pays off. And he was a solid player!!!

    We are always gonna have part of the player pool that does things you shouldnt do...Never fold top pair...never fold overpairs...call draws getting the wrong price.

    That's the beauty of the game! And I'm sure we have all been playing really tight and you raise and everybody folds...a half hour goes by you raise again and now you get 6 callers. Their perception of your range didn't override the cards in their hand!

    Don't figure it out...use it to profit!!!!
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Goal for tonight: Find a Limp / Re-raise spot with a one gap suited connector! I'll post later on how it went!

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