Bad check on the flop ?

Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
MTT - South FL

2k/4k/4k
H Stack 61500
V Stack 80ish

H-MP :As :Ah - open to 18k
V- HJ - Calls
Everyone else folds
Pot: 46K

Flop: :Kd :2h :Td
H-Check
V-All In
H-Calls

Run-Out :Xd :Xd
V :9h :9d - 4 card flush

I was looking for the check, shove bc the V had been betting flops when checked to him in position. V shoved first, I thought I should have the :Ad blocked most of the time so I figured I was up against a middle pair or a Kx combo draw.

Is anyone shoving the flop w/ a :Kd :2h :Td coordinated flop?

Comments

  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    I'm not shoving the flop, but I'm definitely bet and calling any raise.

    After Pre-Flop, you only have 43.5k. The pot is 46K. Because the board is coordinated, I'm never giving a free card. Then again, you have no chips left to play with.



  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    agreed, if bet anything less than my whole stack and he calls once the turns is a diamond - then what?? I don't have the :Ad blocker and I really can't fold

    I anticipated a flop bet from the V, I wanted to go check shove to try and ensure all the chips got in .

    was the correct option to shove the flop w/ 10 bb's and try to take down the? if he calls then he calls and I'm hoping to hold up
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    agreed, if bet anything less than my whole stack and he calls once the turns is a diamond - then what?? I don't have the :Ad blocker and I really can't fold

    I anticipated a flop bet from the V, I wanted to go check shove to try and ensure all the chips got in .

    was the correct option to shove the flop w/ 10 bb's and try to take down the? if he calls then he calls and I'm hoping to hold up

    Probably more correct to just open shove PF. 99 likely calls.

    To take the least chance of getting cracked...sure..shove. But is that our goal? The pot is too big to give the illusion of fold equity...not like you can bet half the pot and fold to a shove. Any bet commits you.

    What I am really looking to do is double up in this spot. It isn't what is the best way I don't get beat...it's what is the best way I can get all the chips in the middle. I could let a Flush draw shove on me and it puts me in a great spot to chip up. You got exactly what we had hoped for!!
    You are an 87% favorite vs. hands like this with one diamond...and a 70+% favorite at most anything else!
    This happens in poker all the time...shrug it off....gh.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    edited January 9
    You said you were looking for the check/shove, and that's what you got. So in that sense it was a success. Everything went how you planned, the run out just happened to go a bad way.

    I think this was an OK play. Do you think dude would have went over the top if facing a cbet?
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    rickmf wrote: »
    You said you were looking for the check/shove, and that's what you got. So in that sense it was a success. Everything went how you planned, the run out just happened to go a bad way.

    I think this was an OK play. Do you think dude would have went over the top if facing a cbet?

    I don't, I think he would have folded. He's shove was pretty inline with what I'd watch him do when ppl checked flops to him while he's in position.

    I'm just wondering if there's a better line to take here.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Line seems OK to me. If you're nervous about the draw i guess a cbet would be better, or c-raise (not that he gave you a chance). It was the runout that sucked.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 842 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9
    @Jeffrey O there is not much you could do with 15bb, this is as perfect as you could get the money in given everything. You played to your opponents tendencies and got an amazing response. All we could do is just let the cards run out.

    As far as your question about the importance of the :AD: , not having it is better since there are more bluff opportunities for your opponent. Having it in your hand will help equity wise but you will run into slightly more made hands.
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  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    @Faustovaldez123 Thank you for responding. leaving out a PF shove. Should I ever consider shoving the flop for the sole purpose of picking up the 11.5bb in the pot? Maybe I'm too focused on the results here and looking for another way to not get sucked out on but being short stacked, should i have forgone the tendencies of my opp and just moved in for the kill? if he calls, he calls and then i'm hoping to hold up (does my question make sense?)
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 842 ✭✭✭✭
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    @Faustovaldez123 Thank you for responding. leaving out a PF shove. Should I ever consider shoving the flop for the sole purpose of picking up the 11.5bb in the pot? Maybe I'm too focused on the results here and looking for another way to not get sucked out on but being short stacked, should i have forgone the tendencies of my opp and just moved in for the kill? if he calls, he calls and then i'm hoping to hold up (does my question make sense?)

    yeah ure def being results oriented. When it comes to MTT, you are allowed to play more in a vacuum as opposed to cash games, so in this instance you want to do anything exploitatively to get the money in. This board will hit your opponents range at a decent amount but not so much that would leave you to open shoving.

    If the board was more disadvantageous for you then i would just shove or if your hand was more vulnerable like Jx or Draws that need to shove. But holding AA here, just do whatever you can to get him to put more money in.
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  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    @Faustovaldez123 Thank you for responding. leaving out a PF shove. Should I ever consider shoving the flop for the sole purpose of picking up the 11.5bb in the pot? Maybe I'm too focused on the results here and looking for another way to not get sucked out on but being short stacked, should i have forgone the tendencies of my opp and just moved in for the kill? if he calls, he calls and then i'm hoping to hold up (does my question make sense?)

    yeah ure def being results oriented. When it comes to MTT, you are allowed to play more in a vacuum as opposed to cash games, so in this instance you want to do anything exploitatively to get the money in. This board will hit your opponents range at a decent amount but not so much that would leave you to open shoving.

    If the board was more disadvantageous for you then i would just shove or if your hand was more vulnerable like Jx or Draws that need to shove. But holding AA here, just do whatever you can to get him to put more money in.

    @Faustovaldez123 Makes sense! Thanks again

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,271 -
    To me the most questionable part of the hand is your massive preflop open.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    To me the most questionable part of the hand is your massive preflop open.

    you think 4.5bb from middle position w/ 15bb is massive?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,271 -
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    To me the most questionable part of the hand is your massive preflop open.

    you think 4.5bb from middle position w/ 15bb is massive?

    In a tournament yeah, I'm never opening more than 2.5x here unless I shove.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    I think a shove was the idea from the start was it not?
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    To me the most questionable part of the hand is your massive preflop open.

    you think 4.5bb from middle position w/ 15bb is massive?

    In a tournament yeah, I'm never opening more than 2.5x here unless I shove.

    Agreed. When you open that big with your stack...doesn't matter how or when the chips go in. You are committed and it looks super strong. You also can't raise light to that amount because it's 1/3 of your stack.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This hand is pure donkament comedy. You did fine, brother, if that's what these dudes are going to do.

    That shove into you is so bad it makes me laugh.

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