5/10 triple barrel

CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 113 ✭✭
This is probably a simple situation for most 5/10 players but im moving up soooo.
Local cardroom, $7 drop, lots of locals who I presume are unstudied. I am waiting for a seat at the 2/5 table and after 20 min of waiting a 5/10 seat opens up and the floor offers it to me. I decided to sit because I recognize most of the players as local, unstudied, recreational players.
Hero has $970 effective stack
After folding for two orbits, this hand comes up.
Hero on BTN with :7c :8d
UTG (Villain) limps
2 more limps behind
I decide to raise to $50, which has been standard at this table. After folding for 2 orbits, I may seem tight and the players that recognize me view me as a TAG. Plus, no flop no drop.
Everyone folds except for UTG. UTG is about my age, late 30s/early 40s. A wealthy entrepreneur that plays a lot and seems like an aware LAG
Assumed range for villain... 22-77/88, 56s-QJs, 97s, T8s, 89o-QJo, A2s-A9s, maybe KJ, KT?
Pot $128 after drop
Flop :9d :Tc :4h
Villain checks, I bet $65, which I think is too small. Ive recently realized that this is a leak of mine, inappropriate bet sizing. I was playing a lot of tournaments for the last two years and need to adjust. What size would be appropriate here?
Villain calls
Pot $258
At this point Im noticing Im pretty money scared. This is a big pot for me. My plan is to fold if villain bets turn and check if checked to me.
Turn :2s
Villain checks. I tank for awhile and think that weak top pairs and mid pairs may fold to another bet and draws like J8, QJ may fold as well. Two pair or sets would probably c/r flop. Not sure if thats correct but that was my assumption.
I bet $125 (Im not sure if this a good sizing or not)
Villain calls
Pot $508
River :5s
Villain checks
I am very uncomfortable now, this is a big pot for me. I decide to bet because I have no showdown value and I dont think this river changes too much.
I bet $225
Now I have 505 left and villain has about a 3:1 call. After I put the bet out I realized I just gave villain pretty good odds to call and wished I bet bigger.
Any and all thoughts appreciated.

Reading this it seems like a standard spot for a river bluff but Im so unsure about so many things in this hand.
FYI, I sat for one more orbit and left..... Too money scared.

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great hand to post, as it contains so many essential things.

    1) reconsider the nature of this formation. Why has the EP player limped and why are you doing what you did pre?
    2) Are all draws to be bet? Why or why not? What makes for a draw that wants to be bet? How does knowing this help you control your frequencies? What is the connection between bet sizing and frequency of betting?
    3) Where is the leverage point of this hand, and how does the right line help you use it, rather than fall victim to it?
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    I'm interested in Q3. The turns jumps out to me as the leverage point in the hand. We can use it by checking flop and raising turn, or betting flop and checking turn.

    As I write this it makes me reconsider leverage point. Now, I want to say that the leverage point is after the first bet goes in. To use it we must raise that bet. To make the first bet is to fall victim to it.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    IN general as 5/10 player,, your flop bet size is ok though if I am going to C bet a dry flop I usually ask myself how much will get Ax to fold,,, the drier the board the bigger the bet needs to be, So maybe closer to 2/3 pot on flop, After that all your bets were too small. That being said, this board is not an advantage board for you and you are up against a loose player so he is likely going to call or even c/r any bet you make, but you have significant equity and getting called is bad getting raised is worse. Also you are playing with less than 100bb. I would have checked behind on the flop and try to realize my equity. On turn if a paint card hits and I am checked to then I would bet. If he leads turn and it is a reasonable size I call to hit my disguised draw. And on river nothing wrong with giving up....
    When taking shots at higher stakes, which I always strongly advocate, there is nothing wrong with being a nit for awhile. Allow yourself to get comfortable with the new bet sizes and the differences in play. Bluffing for instance, at 5/10 is very different than bluffing at 2/5

    Good luck and keep taking shots!
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 113 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Great hand to post, as it contains so many essential things.

    1) reconsider the nature of this formation. Why has the EP player limped and why are you doing what you did pre?
    2) Are all draws to be bet? Why or why not? What makes for a draw that wants to be bet? How does knowing this help you control your frequencies? What is the connection between bet sizing and frequency of betting?
    3) Where is the leverage point of this hand, and how does the right line help you use it, rather than fall victim to it?

    Ill do my best with these.....
    Q1
    Even though this was my first 5/10 session, I have a decent amount of experience playing with 6 of the players. At least 20 hours and a few over 100, either at 3/5, tournaments and home games. The other 2 were unknown. The game flow seemed to be generally passive with a flop cbet or turn bet taking down the pot. And rather limpy play pre. I had yet to see a squeeze though at least 5 opportunities for one.
    I have a lot time played with the villain and he has flat out said that he thinks Im a good player. Im by no means good but in this cardroom a few layers recognize me and I tthink Im perceived as an above average player.
    So with that and then my perception of table dynamics I thought that I could raise any playable hand and not get played back at unless someone woke up with a hand.
    I was also feeling impatient and antsy and wanted to play. A very poor reason to play a hand.
    I think villain is limping UTG because he wants to see a cheap flop, I really dont think hes getting trappy.

    Q2
    I dont think all draws are to be bet, and looking back, checking this flop makes more sense to me. By betting Im setting myself up for tough decisions if called or raised.
    I really dont know enough about bet sizing and frequencies at this point. Posting this hand made this leak glaringly clear.

    Q3
    I think the pfr or the turn are the leverage points. By raising this hand pre and not having a solid grasp of bet sizing and frequencies I think I was just relying on my how my opponents perceived me. Pretty much leveling myself.
    When I bet the turn after a flop cbet, Im committing my self to a river bet unless villain raises turn. If turn goes check/check and river is checked to me, I can bet or check/give up as I wouldnt have put half my stack in the middle by barreling 3 streets.


  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 113 ✭✭
    edited January 13
    Travis wrote: »
    IN general as 5/10 player,, your flop bet size is ok though if I am going to C bet a dry flop I usually ask myself how much will get Ax to fold,,, the drier the board the bigger the bet needs to be, So maybe closer to 2/3 pot on flop, After that all your bets were too small. That being said, this board is not an advantage board for you and you are up against a loose player so he is likely going to call or even c/r any bet you make, but you have significant equity and getting called is bad getting raised is worse. Also you are playing with less than 100bb. I would have checked behind on the flop and try to realize my equity. On turn if a paint card hits and I am checked to then I would bet. If he leads turn and it is a reasonable size I call to hit my disguised draw. And on river nothing wrong with giving up....
    When taking shots at higher stakes, which I always strongly advocate, there is nothing wrong with being a nit for awhile. Allow yourself to get comfortable with the new bet sizes and the differences in play. Bluffing for instance, at 5/10 is very different than bluffing at 2/5

    Good luck and keep taking shots!

    Thanks!
    I have some goals and getting comfy at 5/10 is one of them. I need to shake my bet sizing problems for sure.
    The line you described makes way more sense to me than simply firing whenever given the chance.
    I was so relieved when he open folded the river, much more so than the normal feeling of getting a bluff through. Im way too money scared at this point to jump into 5/10 again anytime soon.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, you have the skills to analyze yourself, based on your answers. This hand is, essentially, a series of unfortunate choices, even if you somehow win on the end. The feeling you describe of essentially being compelled to take an action is a sign something went wrong earlier in the hand. I'll just add a few things.

    1. Travis has nailed the flop line. There are so many nice things that happen when we chose our bets carefully. You'll have other draws to bet that can run into pairs and value bet, wheras this one hits near valueless ones while also blocking midpairs that might arrive here and could fold. So what does he more likely have when he gives action? A problem for you. Just as importantly, you'll want some strong draws in your checking range for many reasons.
    2. Yes, sizing is a big mystery for most players, and you'll want to make that a focus as you move up.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 113 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    So what does he more likely have when he gives action? A problem for you. Just as importantly, you'll want some strong draws in your checking range for many reasons.
    2. Yes, sizing is a big mystery for most players, and you'll want to make that a focus as you move up.

    This for sure. I did the spoiler thing wrong in my op. Villain open folded QJs. On the river I had that clouded, hazy thinking that happens when I know Im in bad spot. "Hes got a better draw or a middle pair.... you have to bet" I did get really lucky but when I get that hazy thinking I know im in over my head.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 191 ✭✭✭
    edited January 14
    Also, I'm sure you know this, but when taking shots, it can be fine to play relatively tight preflop. Opening 78o with 3 limpers is pretty wide, and may even be losing money. Some UTG limping ranges are much stronger than you give villain here.

    Flop bet sizing could be fine, depending on how much of your range your are continuing with, and that's only something you know (I, for instance, would cbet this flop much smaller, but it's because I construct my cbet range to be pretty wide). I agree with travis that turn sizing is a little small, and I would never triple barrel this hand. It just blocks too many hands of his that can call call fold. You have other draws that are better (like QJs, for instance) for triple barrels.

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