Global Meetup Hand

eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
edited January 15 in Online Poker Hands
When Jules asks...

Hey all, this hand is from the Global meetup game hosted by Jules, played last night. I record hands a little differently than some others so please don't freak out about the presentation. I'll add the standard presentation in parentheses. My way helps me to quickly records hands when playing live. Without further ado...!

.10/.20 8-handed, online

4 (+1) 18 l
6 (HJ) 42 .90
7 (CO) 91 c
1 (SB) 50 c AdJs

The first question. Should I squeeze here? Fold? Flat? I avoided squeezing because 6 had 4bet two or three of my prior 3bets but maybe this is the right time and hand to do it with, as Jules pointed out to me. I had not considered that. I think it is still a 3bfold at 200bbs.

4 18 c

Pot is 3.80

4c8c6s

1 49 2.95

I have 9 sets here and should not often be raised on this board. It's not yet clear to me that I will lead all of my sets from 1 4 way with a late PFR, so I may not have all 9 sets here, but I like leading this board from this position in this formation. It is a board that should see the pfr continuing infrequently. In such a leading range I also have some of my pair + straight draws that can continue vs a raise and some flush draws that will either call vs a raise or b/3b.

4 17 f
6 41 c
7 90 c

Pot is 12.65

At this point I give up unless I see an Ace, Jack, or a reason to continue.

4c8c6s 7h

1 46 x
6 38 12.65
7 87 f

This immediately struck me as odd, and as a bluff. How can the pfr, a reasonably snug player, pot this turn? I range him, and he can weigh in if he wants to reveal himself, on two 5x hands and they are Ac5c and As5s. Now that he pots it that leaves As5s since I think a straight with the nut redraw offers a better price to continue. I expect many of his sets to raise the flop, but also some to check. I expect none of his sets to pot this turn when I and moreso 8 behind him can have 75, 65, some T9.

As I was considering whether I should shove here, call and lead river, or fold my time ran down...

What are y'all doing here?

Comments

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    Had a great time playing last night! Hopefully we can get a few tables going next time!

    Preflop: Even with this player 4 betting a few times, I think this is still a raise or fold situation. If the 4 bet frequency is getting out of line, AJ can probably jam over the 4 bet. Also, the EP limper had limp raised a few times during this session. I think this should impact your calling range; likely making it far tighter or even full of traps. However, as played, your best hope is to take AJo postflop OOP to 3, assuming the EP doesn't back raise, and that doesn't sound like much fun.

    Flop: While I see your range as potentially having the highest concentration of sets, it's still a tough sell. The EP limper could very well have a high concentration of sets too. I think the problem for your range here is that it wasn't closing the action preflop, had to consider an EP limp raiser, and now can't credibly represent the nuts. In fact, it's likely that you're the only player in the hand without the nuts in their range, despite potentially holding some very strong hands such as sets.

    Turn: Very nice instincts to call the turn bet. I wasn't expecting PFR to bet this turn card either and it does look suspicious. However, they did call the flop bet with a player remaining to act, so certainly their range must have connected in some way. In that sense, I think folding is the best play since there really aren't any river cards that you'd want to lead. Despite the PFR's turn bet being slightly suspicious, their range will remain uncapped on many river cards. However, I think your range will become the uncapped range on cards that pair the board. So, if you're looking to call and lead river, I think leading on pairing cards will be best. However, I don't think we'll be able to find enough bluffs in villain's range to call again on the river much of the time.



  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 270 ✭✭✭
    3bet or fold. By calling you are accepting this going at least 4 ways with a hand that doesn't play well especially OOP.

    Post flop this is just fps. X/f.
    I have 9 sets here and should not often be raised on this board. It's not yet clear to me that I will lead all of my sets from 1 4 way with a late PFR, so I may not have all 9 sets here, but I like leading this board from this position in this formation. It is a board that should see the pfr continuing infrequently. In such a leading range I also have some of my pair + straight draws that can continue vs a raise and some flush draws that will either call vs a raise or b/3b.

    Its great that you're thinking about what your leading range is but notice that it doesn't include AJo. Stick to your range.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    .10/.20 8-handed, online

    4 (+1) 18 l
    6 (HJ) 42 .90
    7 (CO) 91 c
    1 (SB) 50 c AdJs

    The first question. Should I squeeze here? Fold? Flat? I avoided squeezing because 6 had 4bet two or three of my prior 3bets but maybe this is the right time and hand to do it with, as Jules pointed out to me. I had not considered that. I think it is still a 3bfold at 200bbs.

    I think both raising and calling are ok. Folding is IMHO too nitty.
    I like to call because AJo is strong enough to call from SB. Esp. if 6 tend to open from med AXo and from small AXs. If 6 open still rather tight from HJ, then rather not call.
    Raising is good as a bluff (double blocker) 3bet. You avoid BB and limper to come along, and maybe CO will fold as well. Still, not forget it's a 3bet/fold pre - for that, it's also not a problem if 6 4bet sometimes (as it should be done).
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    Pot is 3.80

    4c8c6s

    1 49 2.95

    I have 9 sets here and should not often be raised on this board. It's not yet clear to me that I will lead all of my sets from 1 4 way with a late PFR, so I may not have all 9 sets here, but I like leading this board from this position in this formation. It is a board that should see the pfr continuing infrequently. In such a leading range I also have some of my pair + straight draws that can continue vs a raise and some flush draws that will either call vs a raise or b/3b.
    But HJ could also open 88 and 66 (maybe even 44). And have overpairs, and nut FD.
    Yeah, PFR ist somehow capped for his nutted hands... but not the limper and the CO. Both have a range which could be wide/low enough to include straights, sets, 2P, combo draws.

    So yeah, you can rep a set - as I'm fine donking with a set on that board as much as check-raising. HU I'm totally fine with donking (still it's rather a high variance than check-check flop and then pot stab turn, IMHO), but MW, I think you need back up equity and cannot air-bluff 3 players.
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    4c8c6s 7h

    1 46 x
    6 38 12.65
    7 87 f

    This immediately struck me as odd, and as a bluff. How can the pfr, a reasonably snug player, pot this turn? I range him, and he can weigh in if he wants to reveal himself, on two 5x hands and they are Ac5c and As5s. Now that he pots it that leaves As5s since I think a straight with the nut redraw offers a better price to continue. I expect many of his sets to raise the flop, but also some to check. I expect none of his sets to pot this turn when I and moreso 8 behind him can have 75, 65, some T9.

    Maybe he just attack your weakness ? But still, as he called flop AND with still CO to act then, his range has no pure air in it. Even if he tried to steal the pot, would he stab/fold if you donk flop/c-r turn ? I'm not that sure, because you've a strange line, one which is hard to balance. Ask yourself, would V fold QQ or AA here if you raise?

    And don't forget that it's possible too that he has a great hand (set, straight) and want full value.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    Checking this turn seems reasonable with a set, does it not? And does shoving also seem reasonable with the same when a call leaves a 75psb behind?

    Yeah, it's alchemy to read into sizing, but we read the same way. Is he betting big to attack my weakness? I'll give him some strong hands here but, as you said, he only called and did not raise with a player behind whise range hits this board the hardest, limiting his max combos of sets.

    QQ, AA esp with clubs, should know what it is doing to a shove here and it's either a fold or hero call.



    It's hars to justify leading the flop into 3 players with air, so I can chalk that up to a bad experiment. I still kind of lile showing up with something unexpected like this, a 10% equity hand.

    I did not shove the turn, which I think was the biggest error of the hand.



    I understand folding pre, but I'm glad I did not because I got to learn from the turn error.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    I think this makes more sense with AcJo, AcQo.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    I won’t talk about the pre flop decision you made, that has been covered. You now find yourself here on the flop, and you were trying to find a way to win.

    Perhaps, if you are going for a fight, the best line would have been x/r flop, bet turn, to represent your range in the blinds. As played, I can appreciate the creativity of your line and where you are coming from. The turn bet sizing by villain really didn’t make sense and made you change your mind. Which is interesting.
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    I think this makes more sense with AcJo, AcQo.

    When bigburge and I were discussing this spot in chat the next morning I was thinking about how important blockers are, or not, when taking on a spot like this. This board hits your blind range, but you block nothing. You have no analogs to the board and unblock all clubs. So maybe the river shove would make more sense if you held the Ac.

    I hope villian weighs in. Especially about his frequency of 4 betting against your 3 bets. I believe this was an important part of why you ended up here.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Jules.

    It's interesting to compare a lead flop x shove turn line vs a xr flop shove turn line. Does one leave villain with a stronger range than another?


    The Ac hands stand out to me to moderate the frequency of doing this with this hand (AJ), to reduce continuance by blocking 1/3 to 1/2 of the flush draws, and to allow me to continue with visibility on turned clubs.

    One neat thing about lacking the Ac is that villain can have it, and now there are more flush draws that can be pushed out or dominated by my own Ace high. I unblock clubs, but I block hands that I want villain to have and fold - his Ax hands.
  • Brian BBrian B Red Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    It seems pretty obvious you were 3 betting out of the button at a high frequency. With a hand like AQo facing your 3 bet, it seemed like a much better 4bet/fold to a shove, then calling your 3 bet and playing AQo oop. As far as the hand in ? goes, you lead oop in to multiple opponents and with a hand like A9cc i didnt mind flatting with the nut flush draw and allow the other players to get involved and build a bigger pot with the nut flush draw. I could see raising your donk here, but a donk into that many opponents "seemed" strong at that point in the hand. No one raised behind me on the flop so it seemed no other player had a strong holding. The turn gave me an open ended straight draw/nut flush draw. Once you checked i thought my betting range should be polarized and thought this hand fit perfectly into my bluffing range, also having the 9 blocked nut straights my opponents could have. Was anyone going to call a pot size bet with the bottom end of the straight? Probably not. Too me, you checking showed weakness and i thought i could generate enough folds with a pot size bet, not to mention my equity when called to make it a profitable play.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    Cool @Brian B Thank you for weighing in on the hand. E is a bit of an animal so that can be a good adjustment on your part with the 4 betting. Not sure how light he was 3 betting?

    So a few questions for you. On the turn, you have the sd and nfd, why do you think it’s better to polarize here, and why do you want folds? You say this sizing would get the bottom end of straights to fold, is this what you want? Not criticizing, just thinking about A9cc on 4c8c6s7h. If E would have shipped turn would you call or are you bet folding?

  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    You responded very well to the 3bets.

    It's interesting to me that an aggressor checking a turn that completes two straights is considered a sign of weakness by both you and Red. The card devalues my range, particularly with respect to 7 (the CO) who has the most T9, 5x and two pair in his range, and the pot is too large for a shove with the shortest stack being 3x the size of the pot. I think I would, on a good day, check my entire range there, and either see a free river, x/shove some of it, and call with other parts of it. If I bet the turn it is you or 7 who can shove on me, or choose to call. You put me in the cage.
  • Brian BBrian B Red Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    88,66,44,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s. This is pretty much what i thought your flop leading range would be. With the 7 on the turn and your decision to check, it lead me to believe you did not feel comfortable with your hand and i could get you off 2 pair/sets and even the bottom of the straight with two barrels, a pot size bet on the flop as well as on the turn. Most of my range really i would have probably checked back the turn. I could have 10s9s in my hand where i didnt believe you could. I thought Ac9c was my highest equity bluff. i bet $12 into a $12 pot, so if you shoved for $40 BE would be 28/28+64 or 30% which is pretty much a break even call i think. I thought fold equity would be quite high, so it seemed like the right play.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    Good. Yes, when you hold the main 9 I can't have it, and I may not lead other T9 combos.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 770 ✭✭✭
    You guys are playing what ....$0.10/$0.20 full ring on here?
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    Yes @Joseph F We get together and play on Global. We have played 6 max and full ring ranging from 20nl to 50 nl. I usually start the games on Sunday nights around 9pm est. Game of Thrones starts this month :) so if there is an interest in getting a game started it will have to be on another day or next month.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Addendum to this:

    Some of our group action is moving to:

    1) Nitrogen, and
    2) PPPoker

    Each fulfill a different role.

    Contact me for details.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 770 ✭✭✭
    Jules wrote: »
    Yes @Joseph F We get together and play on Global. We have played 6 max and full ring ranging from 20nl to 50 nl. I usually start the games on Sunday nights around 9pm est. Game of Thrones starts this month :) so if there is an interest in getting a game started it will have to be on another day or next month.

    I'll keep an eye out for your next date. I play 50nl on Global and when I was last posting here regularly, I wasn't anywhere near rolled to play with you guys. I am now.

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